Curious Change: A Look at Carla Shalaby's Troublemakers

In this episode Ashley O'Neil and Julie Cunningham discuss the book Troublemakers by Carla Shalaby as it relates to curiosity and agency. This book was part of the summer work in the Educator Institute, discussed in Episodes 1 and 2. In this episode they've each brought specific examples from the book and explore how these examples challenged or reframed their thinking. Throughout the podcast, the  balance between classroom management and fostering authentic student engagement and self-expression is a central theme. They wrap up the episode by discussing some ways that teachers can sustain these types of practices in the classroom. 

Read the book: Troublemakers

Intro Music: David Biedenbender 

Outro Music:  Leigh Robinson from Pixabay

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Transcript

Julie Cunningham: 0:00

Yeah. Okay, so where do you want to start with curiosity agency.

Introduction: 0:03

Okay, now we're recording. So welcome to teach wonder. Yes.Welcome to teach wonder, a podcast hosted by Ashley O'Neil and Julie Cunningham,

Ashley O'Neil: 0:28

yeah, I think for me, maybe we start with why we are, why we're putting these things together, maybe from a higher level perspective, big and why we're choosing to talk about troublemakers and maybe give a little context for troublemakers. So this summer with our educator Institute, part of that time was, I guess you could call it a book study. It was pretty short book study because we only met three times, but we did read a book together, which I think is a cool practice. And the book we chose to read was troublemakers by Carla Chalabi. And if you're not familiar with the book, basically Carla's work was to go into four elementary, early elementary classrooms and do like a whole study of them. She went to their houses and talked to their parents, she talked to the teachers, she observed the kids, she talked to the kids. She tried to get a really full picture, like a well rounded picture, of what this child was like in multiple settings, and also what the perception of this child was in multiple settings. And a disclaimer, or like a lens through which Carla sees the world is very, is very based in the fact that children deserve to be free, and that, I would say, she is heavily driven by the fact that children deserve autonomy and agency, and often wrestles with how the structure of school just inherently comes up against that in a way that can be tricky. Do you think that's accurate?

Julie Cunningham: 2:02

I think that's accurate. And then additionally, there's a sort of a canary in a coal mine reference. There's a canary on the cover of the book being set free from his cage. And I think the other sort of implication is if these children, if school isn't working for these examples, these children that she gets to know, then potentially it's not working for other children, or potentially it's the institution itself that should change, not the not the children that should change. So I think that's the other sort of inherent message. It, it was a hit with the teachers. And by hit, I don't mean like they were agreeable to everything that was in the book, but it definitely generated discussion with the teachers that we worked worked with this summer in our professional learning community, and so I think that discussion was valuable, right, where people agree and disagree, because it definitely hit home for people,

Ashley O'Neil: 3:10

yeah. And I think one of the reasons that we picked this book is because it takes a tricky topic or a difficult topic, and comes at it from a very different place. And one of the areas that I think is uncomfortable or maybe hard to talk about is Carla is quite gracious and about everyone, but is very also a matter of fact about the things that she sees and about her observations, and obviously her color comes into these things. And so there is a huge disconnect with most of these students, though I think most of them are identified because they may have been coined as quote, unquote troublemakers in the classroom for various reasons. They don't all present the same way, but I think that's the overarching theme of these kids, and the way that they are thought of at home, and the way that they're maybe their inherent personality traits come out as strengths at home, but then kind of are a challenge in the classroom. Is a diff is a difficult conversation to have, because inherently, the place that is home and the place at a school have a lot of different rules and opportunities in each of them, right? And so I think one of the big challenges or conversations that come up, came up over and over again, is this idea that in a classroom, you were caring for a community of children, like a body of people, instead of children as individuals. Like, yes, we're caring for kids as individuals, but we're also caring for children as a collective. And so I think that's a theme that comes up for me repeatedly, is just this idea a lot of the teachers are considering, like the collective of school and the collective of their whole class, and the child as an individual, and obviously as a parent, your lens is much more focused on that child as an individual, or the child in the context. Text of a smaller group, which is your family. And so that was a place that we found really rich conversations. And so we're bringing that book up today, because the theme, or the themes that we're trying to wrestle with here are three curiosity, agency and sustainable practices, and how all of those fit together, because we are thinking about this through the lens of an educator, but also recognizing that there are some really interesting lessons and points that come up and how we view children in this book. So we're going to use the book kind of as a frame. We'll use some student interactions and examples from our own work, and that's kind of the plan for the podcast today. Yeah, perfect. So you want to start with some examples from troublemakers. You want to start with laying out what we think about we think about curiosity and agency. Just a quick refresher for folks who maybe haven't heard our podcast before.

Julie Cunningham: 5:49

Sure we can start with laying out I think what we think about curiosity and agency. I would say curiosity was really a word we focused on a lot this summer with the teachers in our professional learning community as well, in a couple of different ways. One, we did some math and science activities together as adults, not as students, and I think we used curiosity as we investigated those subject areas in those activities. But then also we talked about what would be our ideal classroom, what would we observe in our ideal classroom? And we used curiosity as kind of a benchmark for that, like what you know, being curious about what would our ideal classroom look like and why, but then, how could we build in curiosity if we were when we developed that observation tool for others to use as educators, so as pre service teachers and in service teachers, I think if you listen to any of our other podcasts, agency is always A theme for us. We work in an informal maker space, and we focus a lot on how to give students the most agency while they're in our space, because they're often in our space for, oh, two to three hours at a time, right? And then we may not, may or may not see those students again. So it's different than someone who has a formal classroom where they see the students every day. So we've put a lot of time and effort into how can we give students the most agency while they're in here?

Ashley O'Neil: 7:33

Yeah, so, and like I said, I think I don't think I want to add on to what you said. That all sounds like a perfect encapsulation, and I think we'll get into sustainable practices more. But just as a teaser for you, what we're thinking about when it comes to sustainable practices is the idea that the teacher is a person as well, right? And if we set up this kind of plan in our head for how we're going to do something in a classroom, and it is, it is too rigorous, or asks so much of an educator that they can't realistically achieve that every single day or in a given day, that's not sustainable either. And so whether it's making the teacher the kind of like the focal point through which everything has to run, that's unsustainable if it requires the teacher kind of be in all these different locations at the same time and manage all these different things that's likely unsustainable, right? So it could be pace, it could be just like expectations. And so while we are constantly here, you know, as educators going, how can we be a better version of ourselves? How can I be a better educator? We also recognize that there is a place where we say, educators are also people, and so we're not doing anyone any favors if we don't set up a system that someone could see through for an entire year without reaching burnout and without reaching, you know, a point of frustration themselves. Do you want to share an example first, or don't you go? You can go one of the examples I was actually thinking about. I don't have a page number for you for myself, so maybe if I get if I get it together, I will try to find a page number for you. But there's this, oh, I do. It's page 132 So on page 132 there's a conversation where, actually that. So Carla spends some time in the classrooms, and she's typing and she's kind of making observations. And obviously, because she spends time with these children, individually, they form a relationship with her. And so in this scene or this section, Carla sits down, and the little boy says, It's my brother's birthday, and Carla knows, and so she replies No, but she recognizes that she's kind of short with him because she doesn't want to be caught chatting with him. And she doesn't want to be caught chatting with him, because she knows that there will be a consequence for him being off task for being distracted with her. But she's wrestling with this like internal idea, because she knows that he has this need to be authentically heard. She knows that he has this desire for social connection. She knows that she has he has this like I. Pretty genuine need to just like to relate to someone who he has developed a bond with in the classroom. But he also recognizes that in the context of this classroom, it will be viewed as non compliant behavior or being off task, or, you know, distract distracting other people. And so she kind of reflects for a little bit herself on that tension that she feels. And I think that's really interesting, because I think that oftentimes right like we could say that there are teachers in the land, educators in the world, who would totally just view that as non compliant behavior and not recognize that legitimate need for a child, but many of us, I think, do recognize that that child has a need to kind of talk or be seen or have a connection and then wrestle with the there's 23 kids in my class. I can't do this with everyone. We need to get through our science lesson, and that's the tension, right? And so maybe the outcome is the same. Maybe the outcome is that both that teacher who doesn't recognize and respect that child's agency and the teacher that does, maybe they both end up saying, hey, I need you to stop and move forward. But I do think that the tension that Carla felt is a tension that a lot of teachers feel, which is, just like this child needs this thing, I can't provide this thing. I'm trying to do all of these other content related things. What do I do next? And it makes me think about, I had a conversation with a classroom teacher just last week where they were struggling with the very same thing. They're like, you know, I have this individual in my classroom who wants to sit and talk and share with me the first five minutes of class, and that's great, but I can't, like, how do I do that, and how do I cut him off, or, like, loop him back in and give him that dose of being seen and heard, but also not have it take the 20 minutes of my class when I only see them for 60 minutes in a day, and what does that do for the other kids? And it was a really genuine conversation. It wasn't like a I don't care about this child at all, but it was like, How do I do this? And so I thought it was interesting that moment with Carla, like the tension between this is what I know this child needs, and how do I do this in a school?

Julie Cunningham: 12:11

And do you want to reference that back to curiosity or agency, or neither? Or yeah, I

Ashley O'Neil: 12:15

think I do. I do so agency as we've kind of defined it, as this idea that children need to be able to make some choices and have some some authentic decision making. And I think part of that comes from we can give them the authentic choice, but if they're not authentically able to interact with us, that's kind of a one sided equation, right? So yes, we can send kids out to do things, but they also want an authentic relationship with their peers and oftentimes with their teacher in their classroom. And I think that, how do we champion and encourage those things? I think Additionally, it is rare for us to see that agency and curiosity fit into the neat content box we've laid out. So how often is it that a child is like, Oh, we're doing long division today. Funny enough, I'm fascinated by long division. Here's my curious thing that I have perfectly related to the content you've laid out today. Can I do this thing? And then you can say absolutely yes, because it also meets all the needs of my classroom, and I can check that off in my lesson plans, right? That doesn't happen. So we see kids want to exercise their agency be curious in the ways that they are genuine, genuinely curious, and that is not always fitting into the tidy box that is our content strategies. And so I guess for me, this example is one of those places where this feels very real, right? You see this child who is interesting, is interested, is interested in connection with you, wants to exercise some of their choice in talking and having a conversation about a topic they're interested in. That topic is not content oriented, right? And but it is them exercising their right to be agentic and their curiosity. So what do we do when we see those those skills we want and they're not applied in the right way? Because I think that we so often want them to be applied in that content specific way. So that's the tie in for me. Does that make sense? Makes sense?

Julie Cunningham: 14:14

Yeah, my examples are two different students in the book, but they're probably pretty similar examples to one another. They both deal with classroom management and behaviors. And so Zora is a, oh, I think she's a second grader, first or second grader. The only reason that's important is because she had quite a reputation after her first year in school, and so the teachers already have some knowledge of her classroom behavior as she comes in. So they've are, they've already admitted that. They've sort of told themselves a story about the expectation of what it's going to be like to work with her. She regularly, you would say, disrupts class in. That she doesn't do what, exactly what all the students have been asked to do. I don't she does things. It doesn't appear that she does them maliciously.

Ashley O'Neil: 15:09

Or it's often like a like class clown. Let's make the energy happier. Like, I'm exuberant, and I want to share that joy with you. That's what it

Julie Cunningham: 15:18

feels. Or this is my take on the directions you gave me even, like, yeah. So the one example I'm thinking of is where she was told to decorate a writing folder, and there were some pretty specific rules to decorating the folder. And that's one of those examples where I just want to say, why? Like, why would you why? Why do those? Why when she doesn't do it exactly the way? It's not inappropriate what she does. It's just not done the way the students were asked to do it. But she does decorate her folder. So isn't that a place in which adults could just be curious about why she chose to do it differently, like if, if it wasn't, every single thing had to fit my classroom management, my structure and the teacher's basic Re and they're not they're not bad teachers, and they're not out to get Zora. I think Zora is a handful, if you have 20 odd students in your class, and she's sort of always stands out, right? And she's always high energy, and she's often distracted, but what that leads to is it leads to her name being said a lot in negative situations, and then it leads to that image in front of her peers. So what if the adults were just curious once in a while as to what prompted her to do something differently, not when it's not safe, or not, when it's not absolutely necessary to get through the content, but in times of like, when you're decorating a folder, like, what if you just got curious about why she did it differently? And so that was my take on curiosity. Like, there must be some window of time in a classroom in which you could just step back and be curious about what the child or children are doing, and just listen to what's going on or watch what's going on without stepping in. That isn't like going to make or break the cut, the subject, the content lesson, right?

Ashley O'Neil: 17:16

And it will take less time than I think we think it will Right. Like, back to my example, which I think is very similar, right? Like this kind of this needing for conversation, or needing to do something that's not related to the task in the way that the teacher could maybe see outright. But what would it look like if the culture was such that Carla could have said, hey, it's, you know, that child's birthday, and knowing that the teacher would have walked over, maybe taken a beat, listened, and then would have joined in to say, oh my goodness, it's your brother's birthday. How exciting Did you do something fun, happy birthday, so and so. And then moved on, right? Like that could have taken 47 seconds, and would have been a really great way to validate something he was excited about. Right, develop a little bit of relationship. Same with Zora, right, asking those questions to figure out why, but then you have to challenge your own like, why are we doing this? Why does this rule exist? Why are we making rules about how we decorate folders? Where did that come from and whose needs

Julie Cunningham: 18:11

are the teachers were saying we're doing it so that later in life, they understand there are rules. But, I mean, come on, even as adults, we we bend every rule we think we can bend to fit our lifestyles, to fit our our daily routines, whatever, right? Like there's, I mean, yes, there are rules as an adult, but also

Ashley O'Neil: 18:32

there's a need for self expression that doesn't go away as by like our decorated water bottles and laptops, right? Like that, that need for self expression isn't necessarily extinguished, and there are ways to give that right and give credence to that for sure.

Julie Cunningham: 18:48

Yeah, and I don't know my that was roughly in Zoras. I mean, Zoras chapter one, right? But that like that was roughly in roughly page 35, to 40. That's the story about the folder. But I mean, you could find multiple examples of Zora expressing herself in a way that didn't fit the classroom norms in the chapter one.

Ashley O'Neil: 19:15

So another example I have. I cheated a little, because I kind of looked at patterns that kept coming up a little bit, because when I first did this, I had a lot of examples, and then I realized a lot of them are saying the same thing. And so a couple that I thought of were things like just the discrepancy with how a child is perceived at home in school, and what that does to a child when we expect them to code shift. And that's actually brought up by several of the teachers who are like, well, this is what school is like, and this they have to be around other people, right? And that's in direct opposition to how they're being raised at home. And I know talking about how parents raise kids is very contentious, but within the container of this book, um, a couple examples are Zora is like. Her self expression is celebrated at home. By a family who values self expression. The house is colorful. It's very artistic. She's encouraged to decorate her room and be creative. And we see this as a beautiful way that the family relates to each other. And so then that is something that has been built from birth, and then when she gets to school, it's definitely perceived as not just like bad or negative or neutral, but it's perceived as like, wrong, right, like you did this thing wrong, and what message does? Does that send to a child? And then furthermore, there are a couple other examples with which the really important ways that some of these parents are connecting with their kids at home are when that translates to school. There are messages sent about what that means that has bigger implications, right? Like, it's not okay. Like, if that's how your family does things, that's not right. And a lot of those relate back to this idea of, what are we preparing children for? A lot of the teachers repeatedly talk about like, this is what they need to know later in life. How are they going to get a job? Like, this is what life is like. And it relates a lot back to conformity. And to me, that relates to curiosity and agency, in that both of those things are messy. Being curious and messy, we don't get to dictate what kids get curious about, right? That requires us following their lead a little bit. And that's kind of the opposite of conforming. And so if we want that kind of conforming culture in our classroom. What we are seeking is a pretty passive learning experience where everyone's doing the same thing. I'm telling you, you're listening. I'm asking you're doing, I'm showing you're replicating, right? Which is tidy, which allows us to keep on track, which allows us to check things off in boxes and say that we've done those things, but at the same time, that is our pace and our kind of rhythm, and that doesn't take into account any of these other things that are going on for these children. And furthermore, for me, this book made me think a lot about the messages that we send to kids that are bigger than that, right? And we have this idea like, well, we're preparing, preparing them for adulthood, but like we said before, there is a place in time for creative expression, and that's important. We need kids who can stand up and for what they believe in and talk about things. We need people get excited about things. And so challenging if we don't get curious about kids behavior, and we're trying to extinguish it because it's not working for us at school. And then I mean it when I say it's not working for us at school. What messages does that send about things that they do at home? And are we comfortable with that? Does that make sense?

Julie Cunningham: 22:41

And you took a over view to my next or a higher view to my next example, because my next example is really fits in with Zora and what you've said so far, but it's much more like tangible, right? Like much more of a microcosm of a classroom. So Lucas this. This one really was hard for me, even when we read it. Lucas is trying to sit still on a reading on a reading carpet, right with the rest of his class, and decides that he doesn't like the book that the teacher is reading. And so Lucas gets up from the carpet, from the reading area, and goes back and doesn't he doesn't make a scene, like he's not being disruptive. But he goes back to the classroom bookshelf and gets a book to read that he wants to read. And he again like he does it quietly. He opens the book. He liked Mo Williams, so he go, opens the book, and he's reading the book about the pigeon. I always forget the name of. It's a hot dog, yes, so, and this is So, this is in the second chapter, the troublemakers and the teacher doesn't like that, right? Because all the other kids are sitting on the carpet listening to the book that's being read. But I just like, if you have to pick your battles in a school day, like, how about just the kid is going to read a book, it's reading time, and the kid is going to read a book. I mean, so it wasn't interested in the book that you chose to read, is that the is that the bottom line is that the objective, the goal of the lesson, that everybody has to be interested in the book being read, or at least sit quietly and appear that they're interested. Again, that idea of conformity. Or is it about this is reading time, and he's reading, and he chose something that he is interested in. And, man, we can't get some kids to read ever so like he's a first grader willing to go back and pick a book that he's interested in, read and do so quietly in the back of the classroom, right? Like, does it really matter? Like, as adults, what if we just got curious about the fact that that's really interesting, right? He understood that it was reading time. Why? Why? Why did he want to choose a different book? And maybe in the future, how can I get him maybe it becomes more important that we're reading something that's subject matter specific, right? And maybe we can come to some compromise over which books he gets to read on his own or and I know the other argument would be, well, then what if every kid does it well? What if? What if it becomes silent reading time and every kid is reading a book on their own? What if only the kids were interested in the book are sitting in the carpet reading, and everybody else is reading a book of their own? Like, what if, right? Like, what? What terrible thing is going to happen if you give you as an adult, allow some curiosity to the situation and say we're still reading, it's a silent reading time, and we're still reading, or out loud reading time, reading time, right? Well, what if I just see what had happened, and I ask why? And I'm curious, like, Is the world really gonna come to an end? When I

Ashley O'Neil: 25:58

think that's the thing? Like, I hear that a lot from teachers, and I know I feel that way a lot myself, like, what if this thing happens? Then what? And then I want to say, well, then what? So let's say you would let him go read Mo Williams, and let's say your worst case scenario is that then everybody wants to go read their own book. Okay? And your point of doing this whole group read aloud is that you needed to teach main characters, or you needed to teach conflict resolution in a story. And how are you going to teach that if they're all reading their own book, they're only first graders. They don't have enough context to do that on their own. All legitimate concerns. Very much. So, so try it, and if the worst thing happens, which is everyone's reading their own book, then what would it look like if you brought everyone back to the carpet and said, Hey, we tried this. And it's so cool that you all want to read your own books. You have so many interesting things. I also need to share this information with you, and the only way I can think to do that is if we have this time where we're all reading the same book. So what do you think could happen? And for you know, their clever six year old, they might have some good ideas. Well, what if you read it for us? And then we get to read our own book? Great. So I'm gonna read this book for you. It's gonna take about five minutes. I'm just gonna ask for five minutes of your time, and then you all go get to read a book of your own right, like but you've looped them in. You've validated and honored that they have an idea and that they're curious about a thing, and even then, in the worst case scenario, and even if you say, we have to bring it back in a little bit, because I can't have all of you reading on this time you gave them the honor of trying something right to see what would happen, my assumption is that what's much more likely to happen is that Lucas is going to continue to continue to read his book and is actually listening to a lot of the things that you're saying, and is going to pick up on everything that you did at the carpet, right? Because he's caught on already and he's ready to move on. That's my assumption, and that maybe one or two other kids are going to do that as well, which doesn't seem like a worst case scenario to me, but, like, I so badly want to say, Okay, what if? Okay, then what? Then? What do we do? Right? Like, let's see that. I don't think worst case scenario will happen, and if it does, that could still be a really powerful moment with students. And the

Julie Cunningham: 28:13

sort of implication in the story is that Lucas was listening that he didn't know what was going on in the classroom, but also we often use this excuse as teachers about time and how much time we have and how much time we don't have in a day, right? This teacher did choose to call Lucas out, and it did take some time, and it didn't set things up for a better relationship moving forward, right? So the time in which that took to battle over that Mo Williams book and him not sitting on the carpet and to call him out was more time than it could have been invested in just negotiating moving forward when, you know, when do we read our own books? Or do we read our own books? Or, I mean, it's been my experience that that kids don't expect fair to be equal, that they are generally, if they can understand or see a reason, okay, with not every, with everybody not doing the same thing at the same time,

Ashley O'Neil: 29:23

and I think a lot of when they're not a lot of that comes from this culture of my needs aren't getting met, and I see someone else's needs are getting met. So I'm going to try meeting my needs the way they're getting their needs met to see if that works right, but in a place where I'm getting my own version of my needs met, right? Like, maybe I get to sit next to the teacher during math because that feels comforting to me, or maybe my teacher knows that I like to be at the back of the line because it makes me nervous, just like I want you to see everyone as I'm walking down the hallway. If there are these little ways in which my needs are getting met throughout the day, then I don't I can. Respect and understand that. But again, that comes back to this bigger school culture and the practices that the teacher lays out right to say, Okay, everybody can't have the same thing. This idea of conformity is kind of a myth in my classroom. Maybe it's a goal that I have, but it's not really achievable. And so what is a realistic way for me to help these kids be able to be Edenic, to seek out things that make them feel curious and feel like their needs are met, so these behavioral pockets don't kind of pop up for me, and I don't go like bananas. In the interim,

Julie Cunningham: 30:34

we've had a number of conversations, probably on the podcast already, but definitely in our space, also about what does it mean for a student to participate? What does that what does that even mean? Does that mean they came in our space and they are watching what their peers do. Does it mean that they came in our space and participated in something that we offered them? Does it mean that they came in our space and participated in something that wasn't exactly what we offered them? Does it mean that they showed up to partner with a friend who was working on something and contributed that way? And so I mean some of those things depend on the instructor at the time, right? It's not really specific to our space, but you have to decide, or what does listening look like? Does listening look like? You're over at the LEGO wall and you're following along with what the rest of your class is doing, but you're not sitting still on the stool with your eyes face forward as a person speaking. I mean, what you know, some of those things are things that we've had to have a lot of conversation about, and I'm imagining that that would be true of any teacher working with students so and we found that when students are we had a young man this summer in camp who was over on the LEGO wall for All of the directions that were given in the camp. And that was fine with the instructor. That was fine with the other kids in the camp, and he knew exactly what was going on and fully participated when it was his time to participate in the activities, right? But he he was listening to the directions, and he was listening to the instructor, and the instructor was understanding of that,

Ashley O'Neil: 32:26

yeah, and when I think about things being sustainable, it's things like that. It's a reframe of your year. A little bit has to start there and and pausing and really questioning why something's happening, and maybe intentionally not responding right away. I don't know who you're talking to or what I was reading. I'm not gonna remember the reference right now, but I saw this thing that was basically like, if it's happening once, and like, it's not an issue, and it's not, you know, immediately dangerous. There's nothing. There's no nothing bad can come from doing nothing and intentionally just observing. And then if and when something becomes like a habit or a routine or habitual or repeated issue, then you can address it, but you've had more time to gather more data to see what's the pattern. When is this going on? Is this in response to something? Right? To do a little bit of analysis on your own. And I think that's an important Grace giving moment for teachers who sometimes feel like we have to nip something right away, that there's some, like, somebody watching or something's gonna happen. Like, what would happen if I don't say anything right away? Well, I'm gonna let that slide for, like, right now, and then I'm gonna come back and circle back, if it's still happening in 10 minutes, I'm gonna, like, pause and think about what that consequences of that might be, or if it's happening every day for a week, I'm gonna think about it. But just recognizing that something happening once does not like a disaster make can help us remember to just like, wait a minute, you know.

Julie Cunningham: 33:56

And then I I think too one, one thing that reminds me of is, I mean, we're always wanting to gather data as teachers, right? And a lot of our roles and our jobs comes down to assessment or having to report out. And I've never taught elementary, but I've taught middle and high school, and I think there's opportunities for listening to student conversations, so being curious about the student's curiosity and noting that for yourself as data points, as evidence, and I used to carry a clipboard around in my classroom just to make notations for myself, because sometimes it's hard to put those things into a, a, b, c, d, category, but there's a lot of qualitative data on a lot of qualitative evidence about student learning that occurs when they're allowed to just have conversations about things with one another, about things going on in the classroom. And. I was reminded of that yesterday I saw actually an Instagram post for somebody that we follow from that we went to Iceland with. So they're a preschool educator, and they were talking about just giving students some materials to essentially play with. It doesn't even really matter what it was, right? But just listening to the conversation, the interactions that went on and the students in that instance, because their preschoolers learning both vocabulary ways to describe things, in addition to experiencing the things that they're working with, right? And before we say that only works at preschool, I was reminded of when I was teaching high school every now and again, I didn't want the students to know when it was coming, necessarily, but I would give them the last X number of minutes on a test to talk to one another. And you know, before you say that they all just cheated, it wasn't true, like they mostly had all finished their tests, had their answers, they had the best dialog back and forth, conversationally, like arguing for why one answer was right over another. And as I walked around the room, like I knew about more about their learning than if they were to just put an answer down on their tests, and I always encourage them not to just change an answer, right without having a discussion. Because if you change an answer and you change it to be wrong, well, so sorry, either you didn't have a rich enough discussion, or you weren't so sure of that answer that somebody talked you out of it, right? Like, I don't want to hear any complaining when you change your answer to be wrong after the after the fact. But those discussions were the richest discussions. And it doesn't have to be about a test. It could be about any whatever material that is engaging that you set out that students are curious about.

Ashley O'Neil: 36:56

It reminds me of one of the educators from our educator institute this summer brought up that they set aside, like a 30 minute window, and they teach middle school, and they set aside they have a blank spot in their week for their lesson plans, knowing that at some point in the week their students are going to need to, like side quest or do something Middle School II and some sort of self determination exercise. And maybe it's related to content. Maybe it's related to the history of squirrels. Who knows? Right? Like, it's very middle school. And their thinking was like that 30 minutes will happen, whether it comes from me or not, but if I can go, You know what? Yeah, let's do that for the next 30 minutes, they're like the win that that gives me from building relationships with them and then just knowing them, and we have really interesting discussions and dialog is worth it for this playing of the long game. And you know, they have a supportive administrator, which I think is really helpful we need to acknowledge, but for them to say, I can bank on us having 30 minutes of wasted time, or I can capitalize on those 30 minutes of wasted time is a really interesting way to reframe some of that stuff when it comes to our attention with time. Any other thoughts on sustainable practices

Julie Cunningham: 38:13

or things? Well, no, I think just, I think you said earlier, my when I think about sustainable practices, I think about where can you, especially as it applies to classroom management type things, because I feel like if you're feeling really contained by the subject matter that you have to teach, where can you let some of the classroom management things go right with So with a really big output compared to what you're having to give up and like, in terms of building relationships and in terms of your own curiosity. I mean, how much more fun is it during your school day to be curious about things, rather than to be so rule driven that you can't even see your way out of like, why someone can't design their own folder the way they want?

Ashley O'Neil: 39:04

Yeah, yeah. I think that's for me. And I think the other thing for me is remembering you have a whole entire year. And sometimes we try to push things like creep things, to say, Okay, should I be able to do these things? And so if I say, I have a whole entire year with these kids. And so where we are right now in terms of relationships, in terms of me knowing them, them, understanding the rhythm of school, us working together as a community. All of that's a work in progress, and it will just become perfect right in time for me to say goodbye. It helps me pace myself and prevent the like quick responses to things, which usually are rooted in compliance, or me like wanting to bring everyone back on track. And then I think, to couple with what you said, just taking the beat to understand where that child is coming from, I always learn something. And oftentimes it either resolves itself, right, either they just needed that five minutes and they're back on track, or doing whatever, and or you learn something. And that will change the way that you respond, which is huge. And being transparent about your constraints, I think, is another one, right? So to say, Hey, I get that this is something you're interested in doing, here are the things that I can't but John and really paring that down to the essentials, right? Like, time may be a thing for you, right? Like, space in the classroom, storage, whatever it is here, like, what do you think? And coming to them and you coming up with a solution together, I think, is a huge way to honor their agency, their sense of curiosity, without tamping that down, and then also being sustainable. Like, I can't store, like, one of those for every kid. So what do you think we could do? I This has been another episode of teach wonder, and we're really glad you're here. If you like this episode and are new to us, you can find more episodes and never miss another one by following our show, teach wonder wherever you get your podcasts.