Teach Wonder
Teach Wonder
Interview with Tracy Part 2: Play is Where Failure Presents Itself
This week we are resharing episodes recorded last fall. Julie and I are heading to Iceland this week with Dr. Tracy Donahue. We thought that resharing these episodes was the perfect way for us to reintroduce Tracy and her work to you all. During a season that is all about agency- Tracy’s work considers this all through the lens of play. As an early childhood educator not early childhood education faculty member, we first partners with Tracy at this intersection of play and agency. If you're interested in what we're up to in Iceland, this would be the perfect week to follow us on social media. We'll be sharing updates in stories and posts.
About the episode: Our second episode with Tracy Donohue. In this episode, we further our discussion on play and it's integral role in development and it's place in schools. This is a continuation of our discussion from a previous episode- we recommend you start your listening journey there.
Intro Music: David Biedenbender
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US this week, we're re sharing episodes that we recorded last fall. Julie and I are headed to Iceland this weekend with Dr Tracy Donohue, and we thought that re sharing these conversations with her was the perfect way for us to reintroduce her work to all of you during a season that we're talking about agency. Tracy's work considers this through the lens of play. As an early childhood educator and now an early childhood education faculty member, we first partnered with Tracy at this intersection between play and agency. We'll be back in October with some really exciting conversations about the role that competence has to play with agency. But until then, enjoy this episode with Tracy,
Tracy Donohue:play is where it presents itself. Is an opportunity for kids to learn to fail, and that's where my students, they've never been taught. And this is a K 12 thing, that failing is okay. They just want to be told how to do it and do it right and get it done. And so, so I try to model failing. I try to talk through those opportunities. Okay,
Introduction:now we're recording. So welcome to teach wonder. Yes, welcometo teach wonder, a podcast hosted by I podcast hosted by Ashley O'Neill and Julie Cunningham.
Ashley O'Neil:Welcome back to teach wonder. Our last episode was a pretty deep dive into play. This is a two part episode, so if you haven't listened to Episode One, pause this and jump back into your podcast app and look for the episode called learning through play. You can also find it linked in our show notes. Once you're done, join us back here. Okay, our last episode was a pretty deep dive into play. We talked about a newish course with undergrads here at CMU that focuses on play's role in the classroom. We talked about the tenets of play. We defined play, and we talked about how teachers could and should be using it as a valuable tool in their work. This week, we're back with Dr Tracy Donahue and talking more about the mechanics that makes this specific class work so well, and the specific skills that are so well taught and practiced through play. We're returning to our interview with Tracy at a moment when she's talking about how this course came to be while I had some valuable tools in my undergrad work, much of this class feels different and brand new. So who's getting the chance to do this work, and what exactly does that look like?
Tracy Donohue:Knowing the politics behind creating the course and getting it through curriculum, I have learned that there's so much that has gone into all of any course or any curriculum here at the university. But I did look up and the majors that are included, and all of these would be a Bachelor of Science with education. So they're going to get a certification, pre K through third, birth through kindergarten and early childhood special ed, pre K through sixth, birth through third and early childhood special ed. And then also we have the early childhood development and learning, which is also a degree with a Ba, ba and Bs. So we actually now have and so I a few, yeah, quite a few. So I think because of this new banding and the new programming, is why the class is growing. I would like to take ownership from that, but I think it is because it's growing. I do see I have almost 40 students right now at 39 but I looked next semester, it's been capped at 30 which makes it feel a little bit I love, actually, my whole group, and I love when I see almost 40 people in that room, but it does feel like a lot to, for sure, play.
Ashley O'Neil:It's harder to play in a lecture hall, right? Like, when you have bigger it just isn't as conducive to, yeah,
Tracy Donohue:even, even down to we did, um, what did I do yesterday? Well, I did a read aloud of a circle story like Laura numeroff and I had them come up and put the little pieces on. Just even to read aloud to a large group of adults is hard, because you want to show them the pictures. And then I did one of those mystery boxes you've seen. So I had a student come up, but then not everyone can see, you know what's going on. So yeah, yeah, that's good. I have to say, when your students were in the makerspace, I was so delighted that they, I mean, like before they even had their coats off before they even had barely said hello, right? They were involved getting their hands. It was fabulous, right? So it's often, doesn't we work with adults on a fairly regular basis and educators on a regular basis? And it doesn't always happen that way. So there was delightful. That group in itself was special, because I always said, Okay, I need I have a fishbowl. Who's ready, and I would always have a teacher my group. Now, I have kids that people that want to be the children, but nobody yet has volunteered to be a teacher. Actually, that's not true. After I modeled, I had somebody. That would do it. So I'm doing more model, more of the heavy lifting. I'm hoping they'll take that over. So I don't know what it's going to be like this semester when we visit, but they there's more of a risk involved, right? There's more of a risk. And we take ourselves seriously. We don't this is a note, and I don't know if this will come up, but when you were saying, you know, what is the definition of play? I had jotted some notes just in me thinking, obviously the things I mentioned earlier are like problem solving and social interaction. But one big thing I wrote here that is really important, not just in my play class, in all my classes, but I think play is where it presents itself. Is an opportunity for kids to learn to fail, and that's where my students, they've never been taught, and this is a K 12 thing, that failing is okay. They just want to be told how to do it and do it right and get it done. And so, so I try to model failing, I try to talk through those opportunities. Yeah, and that's gets back to that iteration piece, yes, right? If you're always successful, it might not be a whole lot of reason to iterate. And if we laugh at ourselves, too, if we fail, like, that's okay too, you know,
Ashley O'Neil:I work lately, I've been working with old teachers who work with older students, so fourth grade and up, okay, maybe, like, fourth or ninth, is that band that I've been working with, and I I hear or feel, maybe there's a vulnerability, and, oh yeah, full and, and incorporating play into learning. And I hear that with maybe some of your students, with being the teacher, and kind of you're the director of play, or you're the initiator of play. And I wonder a little bit if, if, how you how do you think a teacher could get through that, right? Like, does it just happen by taking one step at a time and just practicing makes it more comfortable? Or, or, what does that look like for a teacher who's like, okay, hear what you're saying. I get it from, like, the intellectual level, but doing it in my classroom makes me feel weird, totally,
Tracy Donohue:and I think some of us, I, you know, I'd love to be able to say, well, it just comes naturally to some people and and I'm thankful that I can make myself be vulnerable more easily than I think some people can. I think it is taking risks. If I think back to being a third grade teacher, my students, I didn't play. I in North Carolina, we did not have duty free recess or lunch, so I was with those kids, and I did not play with them all the time, but they sure did love it when I did play with them. And I remember this kid Byron. He was my first or second class. He's like, You can't do a cartwheel. I was like, Of course I can do a cartwheel. And I did one. I was sore for two weeks because I hadn't done one in so long, and but they his mom told me there he I remember because I worked with her. Actually, she was like, he loves when you play with them and just, just putting myself out there, if it's hard or easy, just for a few minutes. I remember playing uno with them at indoor recess, and they love to make me draw four and seeing them for who they're and be like, I know Daniel's gonna make me draw for again, really like, and he was such a quiet kid, but like, really valuing that he's there, even in a joking situation. And building those relationships is so valuable. And so I think it's more of just stopping and taking a risk, even if it's hard, you're going to get so much more mileage out of that. I think of being home with my when my big kids were little, little, and I used to be like, you know, at like, in the summers, I'd be like, you know, being a stay at home mom, you I don't really spend more time with them, because we're always going here, here, here, doing this chores and all this stuff. And then I realized, if I just spend 10 minutes playing hide and go seek with them, they're like, so happy and content, and they just go on and, like, do their thing. So I think it's just putting in some
Ashley O'Neil:effort, even when it's hard. And I like, what you say too. Like, it doesn't have to be all the time. Prolong these brief, brief playful interactions, or these brief moments, yeah, give you a chance to get out uncomfortable for a minute, and then it doesn't have to be you all day. So
Tracy Donohue:this is I'm gonna take this in a place that is tragic, but when the Michigan State shooting happened a couple weeks ago, I went to state. So obviously I'm impacted. I have friends that work there? I know my students all have connections to somebody there in some way. And so I was like, What do I do? How I'm not just going to go in class and have a class? I can't do that. And and so I was like, here is the deal. You know, I invite you to attend, but I also invite you to self care, if you if you need to take care of yourself that next day, when we're in class, we can play games and we can not talk about things. So we can talk about things. I'm going to give you a bunch of options. And so then we got together, and I brought, like, every board game that wasn't like, trashed in. My house I brought so I had like, two cart fulls of board games, and probably a third of each of my classes came. And I was, I was so happy to see them. So I had about 13 people in play class. And I was like, Well, do you want to talk about things? They're like, we'll play and talk about it. I was like, Okay. And so we played hues and cues, and if y'all haven't played that, it is so fun. We I think you can play up to 10 people, but we did teams and it, we ended up like, being able to talk through it. And so I think sometimes also, if you're someone that has a hard time just sitting down going, let's play with this. And like, I don't want to do voices, I feel silly a board game or something structured can lend itself to you building those relationships in the same way. That's good point. I think something you said earlier comes back to that point as well. You mentioned earlier taking your cues from kids, which I hear you sort of saying now as well, right? So if you can take your cues from that uno game that they're playing or the cartwheels that they're doing on the playground, and sort of join in. I think I've made this clear on the podcast before that I was a secondary instructor, but I work volunteering in the summer for kids on mountain bikes, and last summer I had five and six year olds, which is everybody who knows me said, you're taking a group of five and six year olds, you know what? So perfect that, like, I needed that as much as they needed the leaders out mountain biking, as much as they needed it for learning to bike, right? I needed those two hours of my week to be nowhere else except present for those five and six like that was my best I, you know, doesn't matter what happened at work, doesn't matter what happened at home, doesn't matter what I've got going on in the rest of my life. But just being present and giggling about, you know, not getting very far before we need our snack or or like, you know, taking the time to roll in the dirt down the hill, because we're not riding the hill or whatever it was, right? Just being absolutely silly. Yeah, it was just exactly you got, I needed this and the doll, yes, yeah, and that's why I take their lead, yeah, right. Just so I think, like, and I'm, I'm probably the last one to be giving advice on how to play. But that really resonated with me when you said that earlier about, like, taking the cues from the kids.
Ashley O'Neil:Yeah, I think for me, I know you talked, you talked a lot about incorporate, incorporating your content, and if you wanted to give any specific examples that you had ready that we hadn't talked about, you're welcome to. But I also think about it a lot in terms of, I don't like the word classroom management, that's my least favorite word. But I think about it in terms of, like, I think about my four year old son getting out the door is hard in the morning, and it's going to be hard whether I go, we're doing this and then this, and you're going in, right? And I have a lot of structure, and I just directly tell him what he's going to do. Or it's going to be hard if I put on a bit of silliness and we make it a game to get out the door, or I make silly noises every time he puts a shoe on right, like it's just choosing what's maybe tricky. And so both are work, but maybe the playful one is more meaningful and better. Building relationships, like you said, results in a better outcome. And everybody's regulation, right? We leave that, we leave the house in a better place. And I think if you think about in the classroom. If you have a tough, difficult moment, or a student in a transition, that's going to be tricky. You could make it tricky by this is what we're doing. We're doing this now. I'm going to do this power this power dynamics, play with you, or you could approach it with a bit of playfulness instead.
Tracy Donohue:I mean, there's a reason they've had play therapy for ages. And again, I think it's just taking our lead and like, going back to, like, kids have it right, we're the ones that have it wrong. Because
Ashley O'Neil:this might feel novel or different for some of our listeners, the more examples might help give them a more nuanced understanding. Okay,
Tracy Donohue:so you know, back to our folks that don't necessarily it's going back to that definition of play, and this might inform my practice next semester to really step back and define play for longer. Because I can talk, I can preach, I can model all these things, and I swear to you, someone will still go, how about flashcards? My literacy activity, I swear. And I go, Well, what are you going to do with this? Because i i They can be engaging, and I'm not saying they're a bad tool, because I don't want to shame anyone that buys flashcards. I If you it's the same thing with like time multiplication tests. I loved those things when I was little, but they're not helpful for some kids, you know, whatever. And so if you think about the intent behind flashcards, okay, fine, but what can you do that is more authentic, more playful? Some kids thrive on going, let me beat the timer, let me do this. But they might actually enjoy it more if I'm pointing out letters. The book that I'm reading, and so I need to model more for more of what is play, even though I feel like I'm modeling all the time. But have them kind of think about play doesn't have to be what you did as a child, either. And so some things we did in class, like I told you, we did a read aloud yesterday. There's so many beautiful things on teacher. Pay Teachers, pay teachers, and I'm happy for them to use it. But I said just because it's cute doesn't mean it's good. And so that's where we go back to and go like, high quality math tasks, where is where are these characteristics or attributes in this task? Just because it's colorful doesn't mean it's nice, but also colorful can be nice or, sorry, engaging and thoughtful work. And so I think it's more of just like helping them develop some criticality around things they find online is something that I do.
Ashley O'Neil:The criticality is something I think we can all take note from. Now. I'm no stranger to particularly famous and well used sites of teacher resources run by teachers for teachers, and I'm confident that having your teaching best friend drop off a stack of freshly laminated stations without you even having to ask for it is still one of my primary love languages. But considering the content with that eye of expertise, I'm not sure that that was always the first thing on my mind. And I really love that Tracy considers this practical resource that teachers are using, and has students use their lens of expertise to reconsider and refine them. This conversation also gets at the question Tracy's asked often now, are you teaching explicitly how to play, playing through teaching, teaching through playing? Her answer here is fantastic.
Tracy Donohue:I'm really trying to focus more on the unstructured play and guiding the learning I said. So what? Where I see kind of a disrupt, or, I don't want to say disparity, but a divide ish is we want to people say, like, it's this either or child centered, we follow the child's lead, or teacher directed. And I'm here to argue, no, you need both, because I can follow Julie around all day long. But the learning just doesn't just, I don't open her, it doesn't just pour in. I'm there to guide it. And I said, You need to be familiar with the things that child should know. And again, I don't like to put five year olds in a five year old box and say these are only for five year olds, but I want you to be familiar with most five year olds should be able to do these, these, these. But also look at six year olds, because if they can do these, maybe they could do these things, or maybe they're not there yet, and we need to look back at what four year olds can do. So be familiar with those standards. So then have those in the back of your mind and go up and say, you know, I noticed you're playing restaurant. Could we make a sign for your restaurant and do some interactive writing, and have you help me make some print and add print in that environment. I'm not disrupting your play. I'm not driving your play, but I am pushing and advancing your learning. And
Ashley O'Neil:if that child was like, No, I want to make a menu, you'd be like, Great,
Tracy Donohue:let's do that. Yes, and so I'm following their lead, but it's like, do you want to put your shoes on? Or do you want me to put your shoes on, but either way, you're gonna put your shoes on. And it's not that we don't want kids to know they're learning. Like, I see a lot of parents go it was so fun, they didn't even know they were learning. It's not like sneaking vegetables into something. It's okay to be like that was learning, and that was fun, and that's okay or or to even say we had fun. Let's talk about all the things we learned and then something I did yesterday. So we were online one day, and I had them, I gave them, I said, choose your own adventure, and I gave them different scenarios. So like just, just context, playground, sandbox using an iPad. So it's a child playing. And what did I I can't remember what the I think maybe I have them choose a literacy skill, I think is what I did. And they had to create a faux thick conversation around that. And and so then I noticed that some of them are still writing, Oh, I see, Ashley, you're playing with tiles. Can you tell me what that color is? Oh, can you tell me a word that rhymes with that? Oh, that's great. Thank you. And so then I have them go back. I said, Okay, now you're gonna critique your own work. Did you advance your child's learning? And every time you're not under all these things, did you advance their learning? Did you assess their learning? Did you find out something they know, or did you introduce some new, like, vocabulary, you know? So we so then they and so then I said, Okay, if you, if you can improve any of those things, what would it be? So they had to, like, look at their script when I did have the students model, so they didn't want to do a fishbowl in front of the whole class. So I modeled. And then I. Okay, now I have tubs around the room. Y'all are going to go do your own fishbowls. So I had, like, one was a parachute, so they took it out in the hall, and they're like, how are we doing literacy with a parachute? And I was like, well, let's talk about that. Let's think about that. But anyway, there was this one, and they had a balance. And one Cassidy was modeling, being a teacher, and it was, it the same weight was on each side. And so she said. So she was trying to elicit some conversation with this child. And she was like, Okay, I noticed that you actually have have it going in a straight line. What would you call that? And I'm not doing the conversation justice. And the the student was like, flat. She's like, you know what that is right. And actually, I use the word called balance when I do that. And I didn't ask her to do that and do anything, but it was like a perfect everyone stop. I just want to tell you what happened right here, and just advancing their vocabulary there. So right, and not saying you're right or wrong. In fact, you are right. It's flat. It is flat also. And we thought we said balance, and so we talk about ways to do that. And then also, like, sometimes I'll have them play, and I'll just write words on the board that I hear them using, and I say, look at all these vocabulary words I hear. And then that doesn't mean Ashley's gonna be ready to use that word. But then maybe next time we do this, that word might enter your expressive vocabulary.
Ashley O'Neil:So there's a lot of, I hear, a lot of reflecting back with students, so letting them be in the moment. And you, I like what you said about having that, maybe that internal progression of skills or standards kind of that's your job, yeah, and then to be ready to push that question in, or to probe or ask that that question. And not just quiz right now,
Tracy Donohue:not just quiz. And like you said that I'm going to use that next week. What are in two weeks? They also also, if someone goes, Oh, well, that is and they say something that is nothing in our kindergarten standards. It's negative numbers. Well, I still will honor that and say, You know what that is fourth grade, you know, yes, there it. There are other numbers on the number line. We're probably not going to do that right here, but yes, you're right. The number line goes the other way and and to honor that, because also, as a third grade teacher, you know, it's really cute to call this shape a diamond. For years and years, we call it a diamond. Books call it a diamond when they get to third grade, it's a rhombus. And they're tested on a rhombus. And I so then I go to them, I said, is rhombus too hard for a kindergartener to say? And some of them look at me like, I'm like, No, it's not too hard for them to say. I was like, so why can't we use the Mathematically, the mathematical term for that shape, or at least good and right. Also, yes, we call it a rhombus in math, yeah, and, and so just having them, and even if, in kindergarten, I know they're not tested on rhombus, it's not whatever I still, I don't want to limit and put anyone in that box and
Ashley O'Neil:to their diamond is just as abstract, like they don't have practice with diamonds everywhere, right? Like
Tracy Donohue:it's just that it's in baseball. I mean, so culturally we call it a diamond, yes,
Ashley O'Neil:and, but like, like a kindergartener has no more frame of reference for diamonds in their regular life.
Tracy Donohue:No, no. And actually, I took a thing at NCTM a long time ago, and it was math chance. And saw math chance and something. And so I will never forget a rhombus as a square that got hit by a bus. And so the attributes of a rhombus are actually equal lateral sides, but not right angles or whatever so. And certainly kindergarteners would remember that like, yeah, right, if I had a picture of Ramos with a bus right here, yeah.
Ashley O'Neil:So this last section of our interview is a bit of the what and how that goes into Tracy's courses. We have undergraduate students who want to teach in that k3 grade band, or who will work with young children somehow in their professional capacity, and they have homework that includes working with K through three children on a regular basis. And it's that full circle moment. Tracy gets a more accurate picture of how her students are doing by watching them practice these skills. These undergrads get the benefit of real practice and Tracy's reflections and conversations with them afterward, and those that group of children get to play customized games and activities that are catered to them,
Tracy Donohue:mentioned that they actually have a focal child that they work with, and so some students have family members they can easily access, some nanny some work In daycares and child care centers, but some don't have access to kids, and so I run into the issue of, I don't have anyone to work with. So the lab, the folks in the lab, have been generous in terms of planning and the families. And so it's I have a playgroup that meets on some Wednesdays between classes. It's. Pretty hectic, but my students bring their activity. So yesterday we met, and right after the prescho lets out, the kiddos come and we're in the multi purpose room, and my students brought their literacy activities to sit and play with the kids. And then I also have my assessment class folks who don't have kids to work with coming in and taking notes and observing, and so I'm hoping at some point they can talk with each other. I don't know how to get there yet. It's all kind of unfolding as we go, but I get the chance to watch my students within that playgroup incorporate what we're doing in class in the moment, which is nice, because a lot of times reading the reflection is never as much as like actually seeing it and and they get a chance to really try out their activities, real kids in a safe environment.
Ashley O'Neil:This conversation about play has taken us for two weeks of interviews on teach wonder, and like we said at the beginning of this episode, if you haven't listened to the episode prior, you really should. We talked about the nature of play, its tenants, why it matters, and our team will be coming back soon with some exciting news of our own on our work with play. But at the beginning of episode one, I asked you to consider the lens that your life has created for you, the lens through which you see teaching and learning, and I invite you to do what Tracy and her students are doing, to do what our team has been doing during this podcast and our own work. Add some of this information to your own lens. See your daily life and your work with students or your children through this lens of play. We'd love to hear your thoughts and experiences. Email us at C, E, S, E, at C, M, I, C, h.edu, if you'd like to share and as always, links are in the show notes. This has been another episode of teach wonder. You