Teach Wonder
Teach Wonder
Agency: The Setup, Routines, and What We're Leaving Out
The podcast discusses the importance of agency in education and how the physical environment, routines, and intentional choices can encourage or discourage student agency. We share examples from our experiences in the makerspace, our classrooms, and other informal settings.
We highlight the importance of carefully designing the learning environment, both physically and procedurally, to empower students and foster their sense of ownership and independence.
Intro Music: David Biedenbender
Other Music: Vitaly Vakulenko from Pixabay
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I think it's a combination. I think there's a spirit about it. We hope to offer a really welcoming environment, and I think everybody feels included, and I hope they feel celebrated. We're really clear when we'd have the volunteer orientation, if this is something that you're doing just to fulfill a requirement and you plan to be on your phone, this is not the right fit for you. If you want to come and have a lot of fun and be fully engaged and really mindful and purposeful, great, come on. Okay,
Ashley O'Neil:now we're recording.
Unknown:So welcome to teach wonder. Yes, welcome to teach wonder, a podcast hosted by podcast hosted
Ashley O'Neil:by Ashley O'Neill and Julie Cunningham. That was the voice of Dr Holly Hoffman, faculty here at CMU and supervisor for connections that count on campus. We pulled this clip from an old interview we did with her, because it's such a good lead into our conversation about agency today. So connections that count is a student organization or an RSO that partners with the disability community to build relationships between undergrads in the RSO and the children and adults in the program, and they do this through activities and social connection. We're lucky enough to be a regular host of this group, and we love it. And what Holly's talking about here is the feel of the group when you walk through the door. Do you feel welcome? Do you feel scrutinized, like an interruption, a burden, an outsider, a joy? How someone feels when they're introduced to a space or community or lesson, it sets the tone for so much people show up and they almost immediately take stock. Is this a place where I can share my ideas. Is there someone here who uses power to intimidate that I need to watch out for? Is this a place where I should comply just for the sake of peace? How participatory, how vulnerable, how open we are to trying new things. People are so dependent on the environment that they're in to figure this stuff out, and children are people, so they do this too. And so Holly goes a step further to talk a bit about how CMU students should anticipate showing up in the space, how they should take ownership of setting the tone. And as most of these CMU undergrads plan to be future educators, we love how intentional Holly is about building the ownership for them. Teaching with intentionality is where it's at. Good teaching and great classrooms don't happen by accident. In today's episode of teach wonder, we're continuing this conversation about agency, and we're talking about just this, what we do before students walk in the door. In our last episode, we introduced why agency matters in education, as well as talking about our own information and personal definitions when it comes to this, this time, we're focusing on vibes, the environment and the setup. How do these things encourage or discourage agency, and what are the consequences positive and negative of this? We talk about examples from the makerspace and our own teaching and Julie's volunteer work at 906 adventure team, which is a group that gets students out mountain biking at a pretty young age. We focus on three main aspects today, the physical space, the routines and what we intentionally leave out. Here's our conversation.
Unknown:Yeah, so I think we've spent a lot of time in the makerspace thinking about and we haven't changed things drastically recently, but over the years, there's times that we did change things pretty drastically when we really wanted to think about students and student agency for making so I'd like to consider how to space and the placement of materials encourage or discourage agency. Over the years, we've thought about family makes especially that way, right? How can we when a family comes to our space, how can everybody sort of be on the sort of level playing field as a maker, regardless of whether they're the adult or parent or the child in this situation? So I think that also provides us with some really solid examples of how we've set up both the space and the sort of directions in such a way that everybody has access.
Ashley O'Neil:I think I want to break the rules, though, and start by talking about an example of why the why environment matters by sharing a story from my own classroom and how I took away student agency. And it was not, not that there's anyone's fault. I was like putting something on the students, but was really the space wasn't working for us. And instead of making a space adjustment, I made a student independence adjustment. And if I could go back, I would change it. So when I was in the resource room, I taught in a fourth and fifth grade resource room, I had these bins. I had this shelf that was, like, esthetically, was the perfect shelf to put these bins on. They fit just so and they were at eye level for the students, or, like, reaching level, and I had everyone's name on them, and it was where they're in. Pendant work was so if I was working in small groups and they came in, they could go grab their bin and do the activity in there. And I thought I was clever, because the bin was big enough to fit manipulatives and worksheets and whatever. And I didn't think about the fact that that cubby was built into the wall and was right in front of the door. And so it was always a traffic jam. And this first time I had students do this, it was a traffic disaster. Kids were coming in. All the kids were clogged, waiting to get their bins they couldn't access right away, right? And so my parabola intervened, and was like, hey, you need to, you know, stop talking, stop talking to each other. Go sit down. And then she just started, like, passing out their bins to them. And so for like, a solid month, that was their new routine, where instead of them being able to go get their own bin, we took that away and because they couldn't, quote, unquote, handle it, and my ParaPRO passed it out. Well, after some reflection, I realized that that wasn't quite true. So instead of using the pretty shelf I wanted, I spread their bins around the room. So three were in the front, three were in the back, two were off to the side, whatever. And magically, the bins work super well, and my students were able to go get them of their own free will, when they were ready, when they needed them, they could put them away. And so the problem was not the student's ability to do that independently. The problem was not the task at hand. The problem was like the environment just wasn't set up, and the traffic jam was there. And by taking that away, I could have fixed the environment. But instead I tried to, like change to children's behavior. And I think about examples like the all the time in my classroom, where my setup of things probably caused issues. And instead I was like, well, the kids aren't handling it. I'm just going to back off and I'm going to do it for them, or I'm going to add more structure when sometimes the environment could change it. And we've got some really great examples of how we do that in the makerspace, I
Unknown:think, like, you can't always see that until you try it, either, right? Like we've tried things that could have and should have maybe worked in the makerspace and just didn't and had to rearrange how we had accessibility. But I don't know you know how I think sometimes you have to try it before you realize that, and then, like you say, reflect on it for yourself. Some things that continue to work for us are putting things in clear plastic, like large jars. It doesn't really matter that they're large, but so students can that's on a shelf where students can access and they can see what's in the jar, right? They can see that there's buttons here, or they can see that there's quirks here, and easily access them. So I think that's something that has worked for us from the start. That's something that we haven't changed, something we have changed any number of times, but not recently, is not the accessibility of things. We've always tried to make the materials that we want students to use to prototype be accessible. That's always been on the forefront of our mind, I feel like, but the way in which we organize them and the way in which we make them accessible, so that students can a, both take them when they need them, but also B, put them back where they got them from when they no longer need them, like those two, that's been a tension at times, and I think That seems to have a pretty good system right now. So just for the sake of imagery on this podcast, everything in the makerspace that we want students to have direct access to for prototyping is at their level, at their height, and marked with what it is not, not that I'm saying that students always read what's in the bins, but also for us, for our sakes anyway, and then easily accessible, right? So they don't have to ask us for scissors or glue sticks or rulers or pencils, like those things are, just please go, take them when you need them, and use them, right for the as the tool is intended?
Ashley O'Neil:Yeah, and I think we also think about categories, because I I agree with you, like our quick, fast rule is, if you can see it, if it's open, you can use it. If it's in a closed container or closed behind a closed door, ask first, right? And that's a really fast rule that we can give students and they can quickly kind of own, but we also have these broad categories when it comes to putting things back right. Like most of our prototyping, recycled materials are in one space. Most of our office supplies that you would think of like pencils, scissors, glue sticks, that type of thing, is in a completely other space. And we can kind of point that out to students to say, if you're looking for something that you can build with, it's over here. If you're looking for something to embellish that build, whether it's drawing on it or cutting it or changing the shape, it's going to be over here. If you're looking for adhesives, ways to attach things, they're up here. And so by kind of orienting or. Orienting them and having those big categories that they can understand. It helps them think about where things are. Because you're right. We don't often get kids who will read every single label on every single container. But if you say, they say, Where are the scissors? And you can look at them and say, Okay, where are the things that you would need to where are the office supplies, type things, or the school supplies things? They're like, oh yeah. And they'll walk over there and they'll know where those bins are. It also helps with the adults in our space, since we have so many parents and new teachers and chaperones, kind of walking through the faster we can get them to feel comfortable and like they don't have to ask where everything is, the faster they kind of have that sense of agency and can move through the room easily.
Unknown:And then I think, even for things like, you know, they can access the electricity by pulling down the cable from the ceiling. Right? Most kids can manage that, unless they're simply, like, too short to reach it, and then they have to ask an adult for help, but most kids can manage that and plugging in a glue gun at the table, and then, you know, maintaining their, I mean, cold hot glue guns for whatever that's worth, but also, like sort of maintaining their safety with that type of a tool, right? Because they've pulled down the electricity, and they've plugged in the hot glue gun, and they're aware of where it is, and they can share one at a table and and things like that. I think really are empowering for them. As a maker like we didn't tell them you only have access to duct tape, nope. Here's your options of adhesives, right? If you need help plugging in a hot glue gun let us know. But otherwise, this is how it works. And so now, once they're familiar with that and that sort of routine, they have the ability to go ahead and do that for themselves,
Ashley O'Neil:just to jump in and clarify. So in addition to general supplies, cardboard, tape, straw, paper, glue, pencils. We do have some more industrial options in the makerspace that you probably wouldn't find in your typical classroom, namely, we have drills, hand saws, wire cutters, pliers, ad printer, a laser cutter, a sublimation printer, and some other more intense cutting tools. Here's how we think about giving students access to those materials with safety in mind.
Unknown:So we do have some parameters in place, like those tools can be utilized and can be accessible. But also we've sort of set it up where we do have some stop gap measures for things. And
Ashley O'Neil:again, I think we're using this space as that stop, rather than like us as the person in charge, right? Like naturally, the tools are there because they are available for kids to use, but we know that tension between safety and their enthusiasm does matter. And so by making the batteries unavailable, they can go grab a drill. They can see what it looks like. They can see the bits that are there. And then when they come ask for the the battery, it allows us the pause to say, okay, yeah, let's get the space set up so we can make that happen, by the way. What are you happening? What are you looking to drill? Can you tell me about what you're making, and we can learn a little bit about what they're doing. And they're hearing a yes all along the way, but there's this natural pause where they've got to stop and kind of share what it is they're doing. Where do they want it to drill? Okay, when we when we drill something, we typically mark it. Can you put a mark on there for me while I get the clamp kind of set up, and then we're doing it with them. So it keeps us from the safety concern of 15 kids drilling at the same time. But then it also puts those natural pauses in to make those kids kind of think through their ideas, reflect on what they're doing, not just drill for the sake of drilling, which is sometimes Okay, and then we can show them the safe way to do it, but we're not having to say no 1000 times, right? We can say yes a lot, but it slows down the yeses,
Unknown:right? I think the other thing having some things behind closed doors does for us is, again, it allows us to ask some questions, right? As you mentioned about, yeah, that's great. That's a great idea. What are you going to do with this? But also, like, Sure, use all the cardboard you want that's out and freely available, right? But maybe the lights and batteries and motors aren't, uh, aren't quite a free for all. They're not just quite as as disposable as some of the recycled materials. So we want to pay attention to using things in a responsible manner, not just from safety standpoint, but also from a like just a carbon footprint sort of standpoint, right? Like we're not just throwing things away in the makerspace, maybe we're reutilizing them, or maybe we're being a little bit thoughtful about how we use them to begin with, so that we're using them in a sustainable manner, or so that other students have an opportunity to also use these things. So I think those two things go hand in hand, right? And we don't, again, we don't need to say that like I want you to use this in a sustainable manner, but. Also, sure just tell me about how you're using it. And yeah, of course you can do that. But let's show me what this is going to look like my
Ashley O'Neil:example. When I thought about that stewardship example, like one of our biggest tensions, I think we've talked about safety, and we talk about consumption and thoughtful consumption of materials. And so we have cool materials. And for me, the one that comes to mind all the time is copper tape. We have copper tape, which is expensive, and it's a it's a limited like it's a finite resource, and it's meant for circuits. It's meant to make circuits. And so if you don't know what it is, how expensive it is, what its purpose is, you're tempted to like wallpaper the entire inside of your prototype dog kennel, because it's shiny and pretty, right? And that is completely reasonable for a fourth grader to think, but we're not instilling great stewardship if we just say yes, and we're not in teaching any agent or allowing for any agency if we just say no and hide it. Never get it out, right? So some of that technical stuff is hidden away, and then we label that cabinet circuitry. So if we have a kid who says, you know, I would like to light up my dog kennel? Is there a way I can do that? We can say, Sure, let's take a look at the supplies we have in here. We've got this tape. It's shiny, but its purpose is that it's conductive. We're going to get a small piece out. Here's what you need. Can you figure out how to make a circuit using these supplies? If I explain what they do, right? So again, we're removing that need of like constantly saying, No, you can't have that. No, that's too much. No, we're not going to do that. And instead, you put in the position to say, yes, let me show you how to do this thoughtfully, which, again, I think the more times a student can hear like, yes, let me show you how is another way to instill their confidence, their sense of place here, and that like, I can do this and I'm independent. I look back at our questions, one of the other things we talked about was, so how we set up the environment, and you brought up the family events. And I think one way that we do that, that I think teachers, it translates well to the classroom, is just how we that we set up the space, right? So having tables and clusters encourages a family to sit around those clusters, having kind of some simple directions up on the board and invitation kind of encourages them to discuss those questions with each other, to get started with materials that are at their space. When people come and ask us a question, we often have them go get the thing themselves, because then they learn where things are on their own. And we try to be really mindful to say like we're not here providing some sort of tutorial for you. Another thing I think about when we set up our environment, though, is routine. And routine is a tricky one, because routine gives students a sense of autonomy, because they know what to expect. When they know what to anticipate. They know kind of what's coming. It frees up their capacity to learn. But I think that we try to strike this balance between flexible and rigid, because if routine doesn't take into account what students perspectives are, then that's the opposite of agentic, right? So if the schedule is so rigid that students have to constantly stop what they're doing in the middle of everything, because we're all moving on, that there's no freedom for them to make a choice within that or to advocate for themselves, right? So in our space, we may pull everyone together and say, Okay, this is the next step in the task, but we never say, like, you have to be done with what you are doing and move on to where I am right now, right like we're gonna pause and kind of share things with you, but you get to finish up what you're working on. And so when students get to finish their task, or to kind of choose some of the timing, or the the order that they do things, or if they feel like they're the facilitator of the adult is kind of hearing their input, right? Like we're constantly adjusting our time frame based on what the flow is of the students, that I think really helps them build their sense of their autonomy. So routine, yes, is important, but it's almost how you implement that routine and how flexible or responsive you are to the students, I think that, for me, feels like either building up or kind of taking away some of their agency. Yeah,
Unknown:I agree. I was thinking routine was the other half of that sort of space consideration as well, and I was trying to think about all the different ways that we've done family makes over the years, because I think that is a program that we've hung on to, but it has changed considerably. We used to have just kind of like a make and take right where everybody got the same sort of directions, and although they might be open ended, everyone was kind of doing the same thing, and now we've really come full circle, and it's much more open make, and there's a large number of materials and tools available on a Saturday morning, but we give Very few directions even well sometimes because the people using the tools are more advanced than the person giving the directions, which is totally fine right in the makerspace, because everybody should feel like they're an expert, or that they've got some skills that are of value there, and then other times, just. Because there's too many different sort of pulls on our attention, right? Like, here's the iPad and here's the app, and, you know, there might be a YouTube video that can help you out, but otherwise, like, Here you go. I mean, sometimes that's really the constraint is how much bandwidth you have for how many people that you're assisting, and so then parents and kids sort of are having to figure it out together. Also, I was going to say that I think the other thing that we're really intentional with on this family makes is, besides clustering tables, as if we have robots available, there's some designated space to sort of like go do those robots that you're not underfoot of the other people, right? And I think also, now that we've sort of expanded some of our spaces, from the to the Green Screen Room and the marble run wall like that, also sort of spreads people out and allows some agency in terms of what your sort of interests are. And we didn't always have those additional spaces available the way that we do now, when
Ashley O'Neil:I was thinking about this question ahead of time and I was thinking about routines, I think a lot about Reggio Emilia when it because I think that that kind of idea of setting up a classroom is really thoughtful and mindful about how an invitation can send the same information that maybe an instructor could give right. So how can I provide what the expectations or the materials are without me being physically present? But I also think it is how you approach what you want your space to feel like. And so for one of the examples that I thought of when I was thinking about this was, um, how would teams provide familiarity? And the difference between helping like someone you know really well, a best friend or a family member cook dinner, versus like a new acquaintance in their kitchen? Right? So at your best friend's house, you know where things are, you know to not use the front door, because everyone uses the garage, and you're gonna drop your shoes in the closet. You know where the utensils are, so you can start chopping, and you can pull stuff out of the pantry without having to ask, because you're comfortable there, right? You know when they eat. So you know when to get there. So you can help make dinner, and you can banter with your friend while you're doing it. You know that their kid like doesn't like sauce on their pasta, so you know to not mix it all together, because there's just things that you know that kind of grow with that familiarity over time, and it makes you feel like you're a part of that rhythm and you can contribute, and you're probably a lot more productive and cleaning up and moving around and helping put things away, because you know that space and it feels comfortable to you, versus the new acquaintance, right? You're having to interact with questions to ask, where things go, you're going to follow their lead kind of just doing, like, just what you've asked me to do, or you're going to have to ask a bunch of questions about where to put stuff and how to do things. I would probably tend to be, like, overly tidy, where that looked like a kitchen slob, and I'd be less participatory. So when I think about our family events, I think about that right, like, how can we when people ask us where things are, how can we do it in a way that encourages them to say, like, this is your place too? How can we do it in a way so that they end up knowing where things are in the future so they feel comfortable just grabbing it for themselves? They feel that kind of familiarity and ease together. And when I think about like that, that long term goal of like, we want them to feel the same level of comfort that I would a kitchen of my friend's house that helps me with how I answer questions and how I set things out and how I share information. Because my ultimate goal is not that this feels like a classroom and that I feel like your teacher all the time. I want to make myself redundant, because you're just so comfortable in this space that you can move through it with ease, and I'm here if you need me, and you can rely on that, but I don't have to direct you. And
Unknown:we've really seen that this last year with our the big changes that we made to family make, and it's, I think, really exciting and much more fun in terms of facilitating a program when we can turn around and say to a student who's familiar with the app or familiar with the tool or familiar with the materials, right? Can you help so and so? And now we've had a student who doesn't matter what age they are helping somebody else, another maker who doesn't matter what age they are. So we've sort of like leveled the playing field with adults and students, and we've seen that a number of times, I think, recently, with people who come often are willing to sort of take some ownership over both the space and the routines, and they know where those tools exist, and they know where to Go get or if they don't, they know who to ask, and as you said, sort of how to ask it like you know that we're your supports. And I think that's true with also true, although the ages are much more standardized at the college make, but they sort of have. There's a number of college students who have sort of decided that that really is their place to be on a weeknight, right? And they're more than willing to become an expert, and I'm putting expert in quotation marks, just for the sake of our podcast listeners, but to have some familiarity with tools or stuff, right? And help others out?
Ashley O'Neil:Yeah. And I think that that gets back at another theme about when I think about agency. So there's the intentional setup, there's the establishing and, like, flexibility of routines, and then it's the things that we don't do, right? Like, it's the absence, and I think of absence of words and absence of space. So a preschool example. We have this younger homeschool group that we've been working with, I've been working with, and it's been a project of mine this last year. And we converted these old office kind of this open office space so it's relatively open. There's some built in cabinets. There's a counter. We have a mix of tables in the room, and we've got some open company shelves that have materials and toys that are always available because of that rule, like, if you can see it, you can use it, but then off in the corner we have this, like it used to have desks there, but they were pulled out, so it's just empty wall space. And there's a gym map, and that is it right. The walls are empty. And if you walk into this space, it probably looks a little too empty. Maybe under curated would be the right word. And I think when we were making that space, a lot of my fellow teammates, with great intentions were like, we could put this here, we could put this here, we could put this here. Why don't we fill it with this? You know, are you sure you don't want to put this here? And I really didn't, and I kind of said no, and that is the spot that gets used most often by students, and is the least it is very underwhelming to look at that Matt is sometimes used to get out energy. It's very often the spot that kids gravitate to to work, and that blank wall is transformed into flashlights. It's used by the overhead. They've taped papers on the wall and put cardboard on it for projects. So it's intentionally vacant. It's intentionally empty because it's a physical spot where I've tried to make room for students, where they can hear a Yes, right? Like, yeah, you can make there, yeah, you can put that up there because it's not already being used for something else. And I think that crosses over to where and where in your classroom, whether it's your planning or your activity. Have you left space for students to fill it, right? Or have you decided everything all the way through and they're just moving through your decisions. I think how you approach that, whether it's physical or, like I said, activity decisions, I think that makes a big difference in your classroom.
Unknown:That sort of reminds me of something that which we can't easily do, but it maybe does happen in two locations for us, but classrooms in which teachers or students are able to leave ongoing projects up and going and the agency that that gives kids to add to it and to iterate it, rather than starting over. And I'm thinking of I first heard that suggestion from a teacher at the CD LL, the child development learning lab on campus, right, where they would leave up the train set or leave up the whatever the kids were doing with the cars, right? We don't have a lot of spaces, just because we have a lot of turnover and the groups that come to our space. But the marble run wall is one example, and the LEGO wall is another so if, if a child doesn't change some other child's Marble Run or Lego creativity, right, then that would stay up and be able to be added to or modified. And we often don't remove things from the LEGO wall for for great periods of time. But that's another way in which kids would have agency over simply, rather than having to start over, right? They have a way to just sort of keep modifying or keep iterating or keep developing or keep creating. Yeah,
Ashley O'Neil:and I think to go along with that, I think that the what I'm hearing you say is really about honoring what kids are doing and leaving space for that. And I was thinking about, when we're in the makerspace directing something, it is often that you'll see one of us, this is my favorite thing to do. So I'll say myself, I would far rather go to every group that's working and give the same direction eight times, then stop everybody and gather everyone together and give the set of directions once, right? So how can we get them moving and doing as quickly as possible? And then, how can we keep their threat of thought going and honor what they're working on? So giving that short kind of huddled chat interspersed between work time versus that long oratory, and also it's so much less disruptive and so much more meaningful to them. If I can walk over see what they're doing, let them keep working and talk at their volume, rather than yelling and stopping everyone, making them put down the thing that they're working on, I'm treating their time like it's as valuable as mine, right? And the thing I have to say, is applicable to what you're doing, so much so that. Keep doing it, but then listen to me while we're chatting, and let me hear about what you've got going on. And so I know that can feel less efficient, but I would argue that stopping everybody and waiting for them and having them clean up their supplies so you can share like a direction, only to have them go back to the work. It takes a lot of time as well. It's just a different amount of time, if that makes sense.
Unknown:Yeah, I think that does make good sense, and I've seen you do that. You do that quite well. Or you walk, you know, lean down at the table, get down at their level and give. And I think it feels personal to kids too, right? They're listening. You're right there at their level, and they're you're talking to them personally, rather talk, rather than giving a direction that applies to the whole group. Okay? Yes, you know, I like to make bridges between the group I volunteer with, which is 906 adventure team, the Midland chapter, or the Midland area adventure team. And I always find it so fascinating when we have things that work really well at this like, relatively informal biking group with kids, and they work like I when I can see the crossover to education, I in my head. I find that fascinating. So sorry, listeners. If you don't find that fascinating for just a half second, you're gonna live in my brain. Um, so there's a couple of ways that we are very much about routines. There are now 12 adventure teams around Wisconsin and Michigan, and we all very much have the same or very similar to the same. We aim for the same routines right at the different locations. So we don't have the same kids, we don't have the same volunteers, we don't have the same locations, but our routines are the same for a very specific reason. Reason right number one, to give kids agency, because it's their adventure, it's their bike ride. And then number two, of course, there's some safety things involved, but when I think of a couple of examples, one is that our we call it base camp, our place in which we meet, which happens to be the Midland city. For us, it looks exactly the same every Monday night it's set up exactly the same. So it doesn't matter what age child there is coming with their bike. Our youngest are four or five. They show up with their bike. They know exactly where to go. They know exactly which coach will be at their station. They know exactly what peers they're looking for. They set their bike at a cone, right? They do their ABCD bike check, and then they know that the next thing they're going to be doing is maybe getting a little instruction and riding, and it's the same every single week. That is one last thing that those kids have to think about, right? They just show up to do their adventure and have a good time. The routine stays the same, and they can start the routine on their own at the cone every week. And so that's been really important. And I think for anybody adult or child who gets a little bit anxious about something new or about things changing, right? We take all of that away. All of the adventure is out on the bike. It's not about the way in which the base camp looks or runs when things that we know work in our MakerSpace or we know work in classrooms when they also work outside of those classrooms, in big, open spaces, working with kids. I just, I don't know, I think that's really interesting.
Ashley O'Neil:Yeah, well, and I think, like part of our goal is that some of the things that we're talking about here, yes, they employed in formal Ed and in our MakerSpace, but we do them not because this works in the context of our four walls or whatever, but that these things work well for all children, all people, and that's why they're working well for our students, is that we're pulling on practices that we know are really successful. One of the questions that we had talked about sharing is how marketing and presentation of events can support or discourage agency. And so I think that this is marketing. Sounds like it's a big global conversation that maybe is in your classroom, but presentation of an event or how we set up or share, like what we're about to do the launch with a student, um, how does that support or discourage agency? Do you have any thoughts about that? I have many, but do you have any thoughts about that? I
Unknown:was thinking about more along the lines of what you mentioned earlier with, like the invitation, or the way in which directions or lack of directions are shared. That was kind of where my brain was going with that, as well as, I think how we do promote a description of an event, potentially, but you're right, that has less tie in to a sort of classroom, yeah, so I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say. And I'm sure that'll generate more ideas for me too. So
Ashley O'Neil:I thought about this, and I'll be I wanted me. Honest and say like, this is not easy, and it is a constant struggle for us, right? It's something that we talk about often. From a marketing standpoint, we have this word stem in our name, which carries a lot of meaning for adults, just like math carries a lot of meaning for students, or history or social studies carries a lot of meaning. So they show up with this expectation based on assumptions for what they think it's going to be about, right? And while our stuff is very meaningful, and I would argue it's so important to kids learning, they may not look like this stereotypical academic, rigorous thing, right? There's no one leaving here with a lab sheet. And so sometimes we're educating our communities about what it is we do do, and the value and how what we're doing is rigorous work. It's just rigorous in a different way. And so I think these were the word make. A lot we've learned to be really intentional about our language. And so we talk about what our kids are doing. So in all of our camps and our after school programming, there's an expectation that kids are doing right. They're not getting information. You don't read the things that we're sharing. To think, Oh, my students going to sit here and learn from a PowerPoint this entire time. And what I love about that is that working in formal Ed, in informal Ed, for me, kind of has given me this permission to talk to students like they're on this equal footing with me. I've learned so much from the students that have come in here, and I enjoy my time with them. I genuinely delight in their ideas. And I think that equality kind of shows up with how we talk about kids, how we share the information, how we think about giving them just the essentials. When I was a teacher, I would give so much extraneous information that wasn't really pertinent to what it is the students needed to know or do, but I felt like I needed to share that just because I was like, I don't know. I needed to share all the information that was going on in my head. And I think thinking about that, thinking about those things, making it too wordy or too explanatory, we really get at the essence of what our programming is, which helps us again with those yeses. So again, this is where my big thoughts are. Sometimes I think I have a five year old at home, and he asks why I think more than any other human I've ever met in my life, and I appreciate that about him, but he really makes me think about my justification and my reasoning for every decision that I do and in the workplace, in education, I think that's really important, because sometimes, if we haven't thought through all of that and gotten to that underlying what's a real point of This activity, we can make kids go through these unnecessary hoops that maybe lose their engagement or take away their feeling of agency, right? But if my point of this activity is really to have them, I don't know understand the transfer of energy, does it really matter if they do it on that worksheet in a specific way? Does it really matter if they do this or this first, right? Like, if I really understand my why, I can make really good decisions when students ask to do things in a different way, which gives them back some of that ownership, right? Whereas, if I'm just like walking through my lesson, because this is what I'm supposed to do, and I haven't thought it out, and I haven't gotten to the essentials, I probably will be less likely to give them freedom to move, because I haven't worked that all out in my own head. Does that make sense?
Unknown:Yeah, I think that makes good sense. And I think as adults, we often don't, don't think about the the why, right? We don't ask ourselves that probably often enough to think about, why am I asking them to do this? And does it really matter if they do it this way? Is that, is that a a non negotiable in this sense,
Ashley O'Neil:where is the investment of energy and resources when you encourage agency and planning and events? So we're spending this, I don't know how many to be determined, number of episodes, but a decent chunk of episodes this semester is really us diving into agency and how we do that, and all the related practices that go along with it. And one of them is, where is the investment of energy and resources? Because we hear all the time, teachers are busy, they have a lot going on, and that that is all true. Everybody's busy and has a lot going on. And when we say something sounds like it's going to be more or an additional ask that can already set people up to feel exhausting. So where do you see the investment of energy and resources when you start thinking about agency first, when you're planning an event or an activity?
Unknown:I think I see all of the investment up front, right? It's all in the planning, because although staff, we need to be present for the event, when we plan to put the students or the families on equal footing with us. All of that, I feel like all that is conversations that we have up front. All of that is what's worked. Why are we doing it? And then we set the space up and determine at the event, right? What do we need to do differently next time, so that we get even further? Along that road of people feeling like this is their space and they're comfortable and they can utilize the tools in the way that they want to use the tools. I think of that I was a high school science teacher, so that all comes natural to me in terms of setting up the lab in advance and sort of standing back right, or setting up the inquiry in advance and sort of standing back, yeah, that takes some energy, and that takes some energy. It takes some forethought. It takes some being clear about your reasons and clear about your materials, and clear about how the materials can and cannot be used, being clear about your constraints and your time and your number of people who can have access to the things at once, right? And where those people are going to be in the space, all of that, I feel like is is up front, which allows us just to at an event, really kind of facilitate, really, kind of stand back and enjoy the program and enjoy the participants and not have to worry about what we're going to say next, or where we're going to stand next, or what are the students going to be doing while we they wait for our next direction. That's all an investment in the time right during the that we don't necessarily have,
Ashley O'Neil:yeah, I think my thoughts are very similar. I spend a decent amount of time thinking about what that the essential point is of our activity, like, why are people really here? What is the thing I want? Maybe less with our family events, because those are so open ended, but with a preschool event, like, Hey, this is, this is the essential thing for me, so that I'm prepared to think, and then I spend a fair amount of time thinking pretty divergently, like where all the different ways that students may take this, where all the different pathways that they might go. So if there is a tool or a resource or something I need to have in my back pocket, I have that available, and I'm not caught off guard. But it also helps me really think flexibly about the activity and feel creative, so that when they come in, and if they're kind of stagnant or stuck, I know some places that I could see things going and I can offer that in the moment, which is, I think, pretty helpful for us. So I spend a whole lot less time thinking about what it is I'm actually teaching. It's very unlike direct instruction for me, I may spend a little bit of time thinking about my directions, so I'm saying as little as possible, and I'm saying it in the most, most efficient way possible, because I know that people's attention spans get lost the longer I talk, right? But then, yeah, when they're here, I'm spending my time being responsive, kind of watching, doing a lot of observing. Of what are people doing? What are they interested in? What are some opportunities that we could, like, have a conversation or learn a little bit from that? Or how could I maybe encourage them to use a tool to try something in a new way? So it's more work upfront, but a lot less work during that time. I'm no, we're not cruise directors here, right? So we're not orchestrating every five minutes, pivoting to the new activity, which is really refreshing. This has been another episode of teach wonder. You can find links in our show notes, as well as a full transcript in our next episode. We're talking about something that starts before students walk in the door, and must be a continuous and intentional mindset for educators. Tune in next time to hear all about it. You