Teach Wonder
Teach Wonder
Agency: Let's Start Here
We're back for another seasion of Teach Wonder, and we are exploring the concept of "agency" in education - the idea of giving students more choice, control, and ownership over their learning. We discuss how agency is often talked about in education, but can be challenging to implement effectively We share examples from their own experiences, like in a makerspace setting, where they had to rethink how they structured activities to promote agency. Overall, our discussion focuses on the nuances and complexities of fostering true student agency, beyond just giving choices, and the hosts aim to have an in-depth exploration of the topic over the course of this seasion.
Links
Maker-Centered Learning
Intro Music: David Biedenbender
Other Music: Olexy from Pixabay
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It is a tricky thing to define and to explain, and I think we throw it around a lot like, oh, just give students agency that fit and laugh Uber words. Okay, now we're recording. Welcome to Teach Wonder. Yes, welcome to teach wonder, a podcast hosted by Ashley O'Neill and Julie Cunningham. There are buzzwords and concepts that come up all the time in education, phrases that we hear so often that they become a mantra without a meaning. We say them and we don't take the time to explore what they really mean and the implications that they have in our teaching. I can't tell you how many times I've said the word scaffolding in a staff meeting, for example, but was I ever really doing it in my classroom? And did we ever really dive deeply into scaffolding was different from differentiated instruction and was different from x or y or z, I'm not sure this fall on teach wonder. We're taking that time to dig into and discuss our own experiences and definitions with these topics, because the language that is Teacher shorthand often trades nuance for efficiency. We can spend so much time telling ourselves that the latest framework or concept is, quote, unquote, just a different version of the same thing, that sometimes we miss incredible opportunities to grow as people and teachers, to really push ourselves professionally. And it makes sense. There are so many new buzzwords that get thrown into the ring every year, our brain is naturally going to prioritize, to look for similarities, to try to stay on top of the growing mountain of initiatives and topics that we are supposed to master by the end of the year, or worse, by the end of a one day teacher in service, we're here, though, to suggest that maybe some topics, some words, have a bit of staying power and deserve some of our time and thought, and we'd like to do that here with you. So today, we're taking on our first word agency, outside of education. People think that we're talking about an organization or business. They expect us to add market travel add to the beginning of that agency phrase to make it something that makes sense to them, but inside of teaching, that word has all sorts of messages and implications for students and teachers. You might hear phrases like your students have agency. How do you give students agency? Are you developing agentic learners? So take a minute and consider what is your relationship to agency. Today, Julie and I are going to give you a conversation about agency. We talk about our own definitions and examples of how it shows up in our teaching and lives. We talk about why agency matters in the classroom and the implication and barriers there. We don't expect this to be a full on, comprehensive comfort conversation. You listen to these 20 minutes and check it off your list, and you're done. But we're hoping that this conversation is a start for you, and maybe is the beginning of all of us truly considering how Agency shows up in our classroom, and the start of many more conversations. Here we go.
Unknown:So I guess at its simplest form, it feels a little bit like ownership, but not like a contrived ownership, not like I'm just gonna try to get you on board to my scenario, but really like, how can you be in control of your or the situation that you're in? Yeah, I think that's
Ashley O'Neil:really close to mine. My definition would be having choice and then knowing what to do with that choice. I'm aware of my environment around me, I'm aware of my place in it, and I know what my options are, and I feel like then that leaves us as educators with the challenge or the opportunity to help students get that awareness of where the choice is for them, and then build the skills for them so that they know what to do in those situations. It is a tricky thing to define and to explain, and I think we throw it around a lot like, oh, just give students agency. And then that leaves teachers and students kind of going, okay. And then sometimes, in their best efforts, teachers then just give students all of this choice, right, right? And then they're flooded with opportunities, but they don't have the background or the context or the confidence or the skills, and then it doesn't go well, and then the teachers say, well, they can't handle all that choice, so they need more structure. They need more guidance, or they need more scaffolding, which may be true, but the scaffolds are probably not where you think they should be right. And it's not about taking away that choice. It's then about teaching them what to do in that space. So you brought in some. Uh, context. Do you want to share any of that?
Unknown:I think, like there's a premise to the agency also that we have to think about children as humans. And of course, everybody thinks of children as humans, but like we have to think about them and respect them as humans who just have less experience than us, and so I think we have to think about why we want to provide them with that, the agency, or the the choices that we're giving them. And I think if we don't like sort of believe in that premise, then maybe your agency, you're providing them as more contrived, or you're more you're more likely to give up on it, right, and say, well, they just can't handle it, instead of perhaps talking to them about it and figuring out what it is they need in order to be able to handle it.
Ashley O'Neil:Yeah, because I think I mean inevitably, if you give children choices, they're curious and they learn by exploring and trying and testing, and so they're inevitably going to make a decision that has a an unexpected or undesirable consequence, right? And it can be really tempting to then comment on that or or reflect on that and say they're not ready, or they don't know, or they did this for an intended purpose that was nefarious or harmful, when really they're just less experienced, and they were being scientists and kind of testing out their environment as they're wanting to do, and they're inevitably going to test and learn that cause and effect. I think that's what it is, is like they're still learning the cause and effect, like I make this choice and hear the things that happen, and they may not see all of those like domino effects that we the adults see, and sometimes, sometimes they seem impulsive or intense or whatever, like language you want to put out, when really what they're doing is they may just literally have not seen them. And so then it's our job to help them learn from the consequences of their actions in a way that's neutral, right, so that they're brave enough or feel empowered enough to then try again, right? You
Unknown:okay, so you asked me a question about context, and I think there are, for me, there are a couple of different ways in which I regularly interact with children. One is the makerspace that we work out in the Center for Excellence in STEM education, and honestly, the amount of times that I instruct these days is rather low, but I've been in education a long time, so that idea that working with children in a educational space, and then also I volunteer for an organization that gets kids on bikes for adventures on the trails in the woods. And so that's the other way in which and that's an interesting space to me, because many of our volunteers are not educators and do not regularly work with children in their regular day regular day jobs, right? So so for me, like when we train our volunteers. It's interesting for me to think about, how can we best apply what we know about providing children with agency over their experience, and how can we help these volunteer coaches to see the possibilities of that in this space? Right? That's very open ended a trail in the woods, versus our educational space, which is much more confined between four walls, and we more often deal with adults who do have educational experience.
Ashley O'Neil:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think for me, the context. It shows up in a couple of places. I also am not in a classroom as much either. But we had a group of K, pre K through 5/5 graders here just the other day, and we were playing a game, and the students had big ideas about, like, well, what would happen if? What would happen if? And I think I was presented with one of those opportunities where, like, I could hear the staff and the teachers that were in the physical space wanting to remind them of what the rules were, right, which is, there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to remind them of the rules. But I think we've been in here long enough that my brain immediately went to, like, they're testing out, like, what could happen if they did this, and what are the stakes to these opportunities. And so it was interesting for me, because I realized that me as a teacher five years ago, six years ago, I probably would have done the same thing. Reminded them of the rules, like, confirm that this is what we're doing. We have other activities to do. They still would have had a lovely time playing the game. But instead I thought, well, like, what would happen if we. Change the rules and they could explore around where there were predators in the meadow, chasing the insects. Like, what would happen if we did that and we tried it? And it was just interesting to see that those students were willing, were interested in doing that. And then what my response would have been a while ago versus what my response was now, right? Where do you think so if, if agency is about giving students these choices, like, how do you make the decision for what choices to give them? What is too much? And where does that all come from? Right? Like, we're not going to cover that in this episode today, but where would you start? Or where do you think a starting point is?
Unknown:I first think of what is my ultimate goal, either in learning or in skills, or maybe it's just an experience right for students. And then, how can I work backwards while providing enough what I think of just from my experience so far, which isn't always right, but how can I provide enough scaffolding where I think these students can be successful towards my goal, but also they have enough ability or control or to To like design things themselves, to try things themselves, right? Like, how can I give them opportunities to sort of push the boundaries safely and still have this outcome or goal that I'm looking for? So I think for me, it's like a kind of a little bit of working backwards to the like, just giving students agency doesn't mean we don't still have a goal for them, or we don't still have an outcome in mind. It
Ashley O'Neil:also goes back to something you said maybe before, where you talked about it, you have to be transparent with students a little bit, both about where their choice lies and where the boundaries are, right? So time is often not something you can give them much choice on the day ends, the activity ends. But there are spaces. So if you can be really transparent to say, you know, these are the parameters that we're working under, and you get to decide this and this, or you can decide how you approach it or what you do. First you're laying out for them that is already scaffolding agency, because you're kind of showing them those pockets where they could stretch and play and try to figure out what to do with their choice. And then the second piece is being transparent and probably authentic with some of your whys, which is hard sometimes, because when students ask questions or like, Well, why do we have to do it that way? Sometimes there's no good answer because it's like, well, because I said so, or because, like, that's how we've always done it, and agency and that kind of contrived environment aren't friends, because kids can see through those things. And then it just gets back to like you should do it a certain way, because someone asks you to do it that way, which is not really in the same realm, right? Of building agency.
Unknown:And I think sometimes, as adults like I'm thinking about so I come from a background in science where we think about modeling students' conceptions, right? Which means everybody gets to start where they're at. Everybody gets to have some experiences surrounding working with the concept, and then they get a chance to modify the model in their head. I mean, they have to share that model with us in the classroom, otherwise, there's not really a great way for me to know what the model in their head is. But nonetheless, everybody doesn't have to have the same experiences, and everybody's not going to interpret them their experiences the same way. And you sort of have to be a little bit okay with that too, like, even though I have a goal in the end, like, everybody doesn't have to get there the same way or on the same time. And so sometimes that ambiguity is difficult for adults and difficult for classroom teachers, right? Because they have a classroom full of these students who aren't all at the same starting spot on any given day. So I think sometimes it's the things that test us as adults like this. I guess, yeah, I guess ambiguity is a good word for that, right? The the exploration isn't always going to end the same for every student, and you have to trust this. There's still everybody's going to get to your end goal eventually. But
Ashley O'Neil:I think that that happens often, regardless of like, students have agency or not, they don't always get to the same outcome at the same time that you want them to get to, right? Like, if you tell any classroom teacher, hey, let's look at your standardized tests, they're going to roll their eyes and look at you, because they can say, all of these kids are in very different places, and all of these kids have grown in all these ways. So even if we think that we're like lockstep leading students through a math unit or an English test or a social studies, whatever like, they're all coming at different starting. Points anyway, and it's almost like reframing your brain this way, instead of fighting that to be like, Okay, I'm constantly trying to gather kids to get to this unified point together so then we can move forward together. You're just owning and accepting that all of your learners, all of your kids, all your students, are in different places, and it's your job to just be responsive and move them forward with whatever those goals may be, right? I think the other thing for me is that, so I'm preparing a D and D campaign, which is a little bit outside my comfort zone, a lot outside my comfort zone, but it's made me think a lot about student agency, because you plan this story, right? You plan this idea, but the kids can show up on day one, and you can plan for them to go visit the barracks and meet the guards, or go visit the woods and encounter these woodland creatures. And they can decide to completely pivot left and see and so you have to save all these places for students to have choice. And I was talking to some people who have done this for a while, and they were sharing like you have to do, have to help them learn from the choices that they make, which I thought was interesting. So like the students, for example, will be out camping in the woods overnight, and if nobody keeps watch, you have something happen, right? Either their packet stolen, or creature comes into their food or something happens to try to help them understand like that, vigilance is important, and if someone keeps watch, nothing will happen at night because someone's aware, you have to teach them to look in a room and ask great questions, right? Like, what information do you give up front and what information do you wait for them to ask you? And it's been super interesting to think about that, because I could just tell them exactly all the things, and it would be like reading a chapter book to them, or it can be more like I get things started and we wait and see.
Julie Cunningham:I thought it might be important to share a little bit about how Ashley and I came to think about agency, and maybe that's a little bit more nuanced than I can share in the conclusion of a podcast, but I'd like to share at least a couple of our shared experiences
Unknown:that or and, or Just experiences in general, that have sort of led us to choose this term and idea for our fall podcast theme. And then I want to lay out a little bit of a roadmap for where we're going this fall as we bring agency to you through the podcast. So both of us, I think we've already established on the podcast have been classroom teachers, and both of us have been in education for Well, for me, probably almost 25 years, and for Ashley less than that, but for a good amount of time, it's from our experience of working with children and seeing children learn both in formal education and then more recently, in the Makerspace in informal education, that we've come to have many of the discussions that we have surrounding agency. So when we first opened the makerspace, we always had students come into the makerspace for field trips, but we used to focus much more on engineering challenges, and furthermore, we'd focus much more on engineering challenges. Julie
Ashley O'Neil:goes on to tell a story that if you've been around either one of us for any length of time, you've probably heard a time or two. It's a story about how we changed our thinking, about the kids that work in the makerspace, and the work that we were doing, how we set up these traditional engineering challenges, and we were able to see in real time how it was impacting kids. And it wasn't all great, and especially
Unknown:female students. Some were feeling much less successful than others, or much less capable of doing STEM than others, and they were, they were vocal about it, at least to their peers. And we thought to ourselves, this is not acceptable, right? We both believe, with everything, that we know that all students can learn and that all students are capable, and that there's room for all students to be creating in the makerspace and making in the makerspace,
Ashley O'Neil:seeing the unintended impacts of our work influenced most of what we do at the center our programming and our philosophy of kids in general, we knew
Unknown:that we had to change their experience, and for us, that meant giving students, even though they're with US, often for a limited amount of time, more agency over their experience in the space. And so before we move on and talk about the roadmap for where we're going, I just want to share that besides just giving students more choice, it's not it's not as simple as. That it's not as simple as just giving students more choice in the MakerSpace. We have to also provide them with the opportunity to use that choice. And I think another word that comes to mind is we have to empower them to use their opportunity and their choice to understand that that's a way to make change for themselves, or even more importantly, for others in this world. And so we rely heavily on a couple of resources. We have relied heavily on a couple of resources, mostly throughout our time in developing experiences in the MakerSpace. But two that we come back to, or that, I guess I could speak for myself, that I come back to repeatedly, is a book called maker centered learning, empowering young people to shape their worlds, and we can link that in the show notes. And then also, just in general, the Stanford d school resources, especially those resources for professional development and for K 12 teaching and learning. So those are two ways in which we found to utilize resources that already exist, but to tweak them, to make them ours and to provide children with more choice, opportunity and empowerment in the MakerSpace. In terms of a roadmap this fall, we really want to think about what is an intentional setup of a classroom or an education space, or even a space outside of education. What does that look like, and why is the setup that way to promote agency? Then we want to think about kids as sense makers, so thinking about them being competent and having the adults working with them, presuming competence, and how that reflects agency, or agency is reflected with competence and then authenticity. So who has the power and the control, and how do we make things transparent for students, and how can adults show their vulnerability, along with asking students to be vulnerable in the classroom or the informal education space, and then the context so that the choice is real and not superficial. I'm not sure that that's all the topics that we're going to cover, but then we would like to sort of end the season thinking about feedback and formative assessment, and maybe come back to agency. What does this look like in a classroom or in an education setting, or, as you sometimes hear me talk about, even in a space in which you're volunteering with kids. So thanks for listening, and we're kind of excited about this new podcast set up for fall, and we hope that you'll come along for the ride.
Ashley O'Neil:So there you have it, a flexible plan for the semester. You can find links to the book Julie mentioned and our website in the show notes. Until next time this is teach wonder you.