Teach Wonder
Teach Wonder
Permission From Ourselves: A Discussion about Students, Growth, and PBL
We talked with Instructrional Coach Megan Nix. This conversation includes insights into project-based learning, how we think about students and their voice and choice, and the experiences that change us as teachers. Megan's answers are full of reflection and insight; they are an expression of how much she values students and giving them meaningful and authentic learning experiences.
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Intro Music: David Biedenbeder
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Okay, now we're recording so welcome to Teach Wonder.
Unknown:Yes, Welcome to teach wonder
Introduction:A podcast hosted by Ashley O'Neal and Julie Cunningham.
Ashley O'Neil:Do you look back on your first year teacher self with kindness, or cringe, or maybe a mix of both. I finished my undergrad at CMU in 2010. And I left college ready to transform the educational world hate. Much of my first years of teaching are a total blur of somatic units and small group planning. And feeling like I was adding things to my to do list at a faster rate than I was checking them off. But it was also full of so much joy. If I could go back and talk to my first year teacher self, I would tell her to slow down, I'd recommend less coffee, I'd recommend more grace and I would recommend fewer color coordinated book bins. But seriously, something I really enjoyed about getting older is getting the chance to reflect on the ways that I've changed professionally and personally. We often send her a podcast around growth and around change and this episode is no different. But it resonates in a particular way for me, because we're interviewing a former college classmate and co worker of mine.
Julie Cunningham:On today's podcast, you'll hear our interview with Meghan nicks, Meghan has worked in education since 2010. Our interview with Megan focuses on project based learning, student engagement, and the significant ways in which Megan has changed since beginning her career. And one last note, we give you permission.
Ashley O'Neil:Okay, Megan, welcome to the podcast. Can you start by introducing yourself?
Megan Nix:Sure. I am officially an instructional coach and PBL consultant at Renaissance public school academy.
Ashley O'Neil:Okay, so I am going to ask that you start telling us a little bit about your teaching journey if that's okay. Yeah, absolutely.
Megan Nix:Um, it I have been officially I suppose in education for 12 years now. I, you know, went to college at CMU and pursued a degree in elementary ed and special education with an EI certification student taught at Renaissance where I'm at right now and stayed. And so in that 12 years, I Gosh, I don't know it's quite the tail. I started out teaching first grade, actually, with Ashley as my first teaching partner. And then we, a couple of years in the school decided to adopt a multi age approach. So did first and second grade and kind of helped with getting that figured out at the time. And then switched to third and fourth grade with the same kind of thought, I guess, work looking at how multi age learning might look at that age level and spent a couple of years there and then kept moving and taught that didn't sixth grade for three years before I moved out of the classroom and into an instructional coaching role. And so that's kind of where I am right now. So across a lot and now my primary focus is project based learning for my school, as well as in struggled for fifth through eighth grades and of course, in the world of education that looks completely different from year to year. So right now I am supporting our teachers K in my building with pretty much anything and everything curriculum related PBL math, literacy, new resources, all of the things so
Ashley O'Neil:perfect. Yeah, I we talk to each other for just one year. I can't remember if it was one or if it was two.
Megan Nix:No, I'm pretty sure. I think it was two. Yep. Yeah.
Ashley O'Neil:Yeah, those those years like blur together just a little bit because I think we were both so early in our careers that everything felt new all the time. And both. So Megan and I have this similar or we had this similar personality where like, we were going to reinvent all the wheels. Being a first year teacher wasn't tricky enough. So we were just gonna, like go really had to like reinventing the curriculum and everything. So I feel like each year felt a little bit like a new year because we were just doing a lot of new things every time
Megan Nix:for sure. And I wish that I could say that that has like changed but if I'm being completely honest, I don't feel like that has really changed and I don't know if it's just me. And like you said like always reinventing things or if it's just that every year brings something new as like, I think something new in me as well as new with kids and new with my role. And so I don't know. Yeah, I think about those early years, and it does all kind of blur together. Because I think exactly what you said though, like every, every single year has just brought something new and it all kind of blends sometimes.
Ashley O'Neil:Can you this was not a question. So I'm already breaking rules. But I am a little bit curious about how you think about, could you talk a little bit about how you and your school think about PBL? Because some people are super familiar, some people are not. And then some people have different definitions.
Julie Cunningham:That was my follow up question.
Megan Nix:You're gonna have to be careful with that one, though. Because once you get me started, I might not stop. So write me and if you need to. But we we think about project based learning as a instructional technique or strategy, I suppose for helping kids engage with all of the learning and things they need to do in school in the most authentic way possible. So when I say project based learning, I picture, a backwards design process that looks at what kids need to have mastered in, you know, three weeks or six weeks from now. And then working from there and thinking about what might be some experiences we can help provide them and some opportunities for them to ask questions and dig into things and kind of drive learning for the next few weeks that will end us in some sort of place, or that will have some sort of authentic purpose. So thinking about what would be something that would people would really do with this knowledge? And how can we guide students towards working with that? And so yeah, so that's where it comes in. So the learning happens in order for them to be successful with whatever that end goal might be.
Julie Cunningham:Okay, can I ask a follow up question? We do this all the time. Usually, it's not the same follow up question, though. That sounds fabulous. Everything you said sounds fabulous. And And why wouldn't we want kids to be authentic learners. But sometimes the way it plays out in a traditional K 12 school setting can be a little bit of a struggle for depending on plan, right? What parameters are in place to support that. So if you can just give our listeners just a snapshot of the kind of things that you think you've specifically had to support for classroom teachers to be able to do that. So I don't know if you have like an example. Or if you can think about when you think about your instructional coaching, like where do most supports come in? Where would people look remote, the most supports when they think about project based learning
Megan Nix:right now. And I want to caveat that by saying we are in year five of a journey in this direction, so my teachers are not generally coming in to project based learning like new right now. Or if they are new, they're coming in, in a structure that's already in place to kind of help that be successful. So I guess I want to talk about what is the focus mostly now, compared to what it was when we first started? If that's okay,
Julie Cunningham:yeah. And I think that's a great context. And that, that's really telling that you've been at it for five years. Like it's not a finished product, right, even Oh, number. So I think that's, I think that's really important message as well.
Unknown:Yeah, absolutely. And that's where, you know, right now, I think faces of the teachers that I support every day, and some of them have been on this journey, right along with me, you know, in the last five years, and some of them are either brand new to us, or brand new to teaching and all of the above so, but because we are in a place where, you know, our curriculum, our pacing, our priority standards have all been structured to lend themselves towards using project based learning. The thing that I support teachers with most right now is just the it's the organization of it, it's been figuring out how to take this really big and really cool and exciting idea and take all of that excitement and bring it down to a place where you can look at your lesson plans, and okay, what does Monday need to look like? And what this Tuesday need to look like? Which I mean, and that's, I think that's the reality of what teachers live in whatever structure is like, yes, it's all well and great, but what does it look like when I have 25? Kids right in front of me? And how do I be ready for that? So that's where I spend most of my time supporting is meeting with teams and teachers and talking about like, our, you know, a great example right now our first graders are digging into light and sound and one of the standards Well, the standards all have to do with playing with light and sound learning about that, but one of them specifically has to do with using light and sound to communicate in some way. And so we you know, we have met several times and thrown out all of the ideas possible under the sun and all these really cool things that would be so fun to let them just give them these materials and let them explore and see what They found in talking about it and, and how you know, and getting them to a point of like they could communicate their classrooms right across the hall. So all of these super fun ideas. And now I take all of that and start to put it into this like unit plan that helps them think about how does the day to day happen. But how does that day to day continue to work towards that end goal and make sure that it's left open enough that the kids have time and space to ask questions, and we can like change course partway through them. And that like that's probably the trickiest piece, once you get going with it is knowing like I have full permission to do this. I have schedule that allows me to do it. I know what standards are the priority. But then in reality, like, still figuring out exactly what that looks like, each day is tricky. So that's where Focus comes from right now like primarily, thinking about, you know, five years ago, or even three years ago, when we were first starting with this and supporting teachers, it looks different than that, because it still was in the early phases of I think focusing a lot on permission, per like, not where I'm at not permission from like a school leadership place, but more of permission like from ourselves and what traditional structures of schooling have taught us that it's supposed to look like. So supporting my teachers with being comfortable with thinking outside of the box. And being comfortable with thinking like, it would be amazing if we just threw some pails and sand and a ton of different size speakers at them and saw what happened. And being comfortable with that. Because it is such a change from what it looked like when we were in school, it's a change from what it probably looks like up till then it's a change from maybe what it looks like in classrooms that they'd worked in prior. And that's like that was for sure, in those early years, the majority of what we were talking about and working on and we've just come a long way since then, as a school, but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of people who are still, you know, in those early phases of thinking about how it just it can look different. And there's got to be permission there. So
Julie Cunningham:I love that response. Thank you, Megan. And I think that will really help our listeners think even more deeply about what you mean by PBL. Right. I think that that was great. Thank you. Thanks for articulating it just
Ashley O'Neil:I, I want it we I'm sure it will come back to PBL. And I think that's great. But selfishly, I Brian again on my podcast for very selfish reasons in that she is my educational twin. Because we were born, I mean, like a day apart. I think our birthdays are very close to the same age. We graduated at the same time, we ended up teaching at the same school. And we I would say that we probably were quite similar back in time. And I would say that I have changed quite a bit since we were teaching together. And I imagine that you have also changed quite a bit since our first year teaching first grade together. And I want to hear a little bit about how you look back at your career. We talk a lot in this space about being reflective as teachers. And I just think that exercise with you would be really interesting. So would you talk a little bit about how you would describe your self as a teacher back then? And now? And a little bit about maybe that shift?
Megan Nix:Sure, absolutely. Um, it is, it is such a weird thing to think about. And I do feel like every time I actually you and I get together like I you know, flooded with all these memories of like, who we went toward what that looked like, it was wonderful, wonderful. Don't get me wrong. But yeah, I think I often think like, if I could reverse time, there's so many things I would do differently. And it's not even just 12 years ago to the beginning. It's I think about three years ago when I was still in my own classroom or you know. So that's it's such a big question to answer. But I think when I think about it, when I first started teaching, I had this image of what it was going to look like and what it was going to be. And if I'm being totally honest, it was an event driven by what I thought it meant to be teacher and how cute and organized the classroom could be and how sweet those little faces were and how fun it would be when we were all making the same, you know, bat crap, are just some of those things that come to mind that like, I think I was, you know, I was eager and excited and passionate. And I think I would say all of those same things about myself. But I think what I thought that that looked like or what I was passionate about was very different. I didn't have a strong understanding of what different individuals kids inside of my classroom were like, you know, I would spend so much time Setting up the space and all of these perfect little things and desks and groups. And I definitely, I valued letting the kid you know, asking them questions as their time with them. But I didn't have as strong of an understanding as I do now of the fact that like, they come to you as these individual little human beings, and not that you're turning them into human beings, if that makes any type of sense. And so that that, for me is a huge difference. And then you add to that, just all of the new knowledge like just I mean, when you first come out of college, you, you think you know how to do it, and then you go in, and it's like, oh, my, but I also think that like we the world of education itself has learned so much since I, you know, first entered the classroom just about teaching, reading, and about the way kids learn, and all that has changed. And this, you know, I think it's probably pretty obvious at this point that I am really passionate about school looking different than it did when I was in school, when you know, we were younger, I'm really passionate about looking for non traditional ways to let kids just be people and be curious and stay curious forever. And I didn't have as much of a value or even an understanding that it could look different at that time, like I do now.
Ashley O'Neil:Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense when you were talking. I think if I could like label an area of change, for me, it was about the word management, we talked so much in our classes about like classroom management, and behavior management. And now I cringe at this idea of like managing other people, especially managing young people. And I, when you talk about thinking about children, as individuals who come fully formed with their own history and their own context, being willing to see all of your students with all of their layers is complicated. And I don't think I had the life experience to fully like, conceptualize that when I was 23. And teaching first grade, but I hear you, and you say like that, that has become far more paramount to me. And I think my beginning career, I was really into, like literacy and engagement and creating like differentiated centers. And I thought that by doing that, I could like, just throw out all of this stuff that I knew is good. And maybe it's still good, maybe. But it was very disconnected from my actual audience, because I didn't have the practice of tuning into who the learners were in my room and actually being responsive to their teaching or to like, what they were trying to tell me with their bare like communication. So that's, that's super interesting. Do you have any questions? Yeah, sorry.
Julie Cunningham:Well, I think I have a question for both of you. And so do you think that I mean, we say that to pre service teachers, I feel like when they're in college courses, right, like, I don't think that that message isn't? I don't think the message is, is absent from college teaching courses, but maybe the where, and I don't want to get into how college students are taught whether that's right or wrong. But what I hear you saying is, even as a young teacher, you're not sure if your experiences will allow you to see that until you experience teaching. And yet I wonder like, how can we get students to recognize that sooner and preserve and insert sorry, pre service teachers to recognize that sooner? So that, right, so that were there for the children? Earlier in our careers? Like, do you think there's a way that that can happen that can be better supported?
Megan Nix:I, I think it comes from a couple of things. One, like, I spent some time, you know, in classrooms like going through there were required time to spend with kids and observing in rooms. And then there were some, you know, where I had chosen, obviously, I enjoyed working with kids. So I had chosen some jobs and experiences that led to that stuff. But I don't think enough to have really, like understood, like, I think part of it is the more time that you can spend interacting with kids and like just that's where that realization that like they are, you know, they're just as much human beings and people and have their own personalities and experiences as the other adults that we walk our life with. And I didn't, it's hard to explain because it's like, you know, I knew that they were all individuals, but just that understanding grows, the more time that you spend working with kids. And then I also think it's, it's getting those experiences that pre service teachers have outside of just traditional places to like, I would love to see more opportunities to work with kids. I'm in after school programs and have that count towards, you know, schooling and summer camp programs and count towards schooling and some of that stuff. Because I that probably lends to my own bias that like, education does should not look like so traditional, and so cookie cutter. But I think the more than they can see and experience kids and realize that kids learn in those places, and how they just step up experiences in different environments, would be really beneficial. Because that's then when you look at a classroom, and you start to kind of turn your head and think like, like, why do these four walls look so different than a summer camp program or daycare or like where these kids are truly spending life? You know, but you have to see it a little bit more.
Ashley O'Neil:I think that's a great response. And I, so I'm teaching a couple of undergrads right now in a an online class, which is presenting its own unique challenges. But that's a great like, your question is well timed, because we're doing this section all about, like, balance look like a literacy classroom, and what your ideal classroom would look like, which to me was like the most fun, let's dream up our great classroom and their dreams were all like, before I even read their papers, there was a lot of crossover in their dreams, because they very much sounded like the classrooms that maybe I had grown up in, maybe they had grown up in. And the other thing I think is interesting is like, sometimes I think we as maybe more practiced teachers, we can take these really big concepts, and we break them down into into lingo. But we aren't as great at onboarding people into the nuances of what that language is. And my example for this as we were talking about sharing control of a classroom, and the true nuanced, like conversation was really about giving students meaningful choice in a classroom, which is important, which matters, right, like giving them a sense of like, this is their space as much as they adults, but then, when that was reflected back to some of my students, their immediate go to is what that word control. And so they thought only in terms of how like, children should be in control of their bodies, teachers who would give children security by being in control of the classroom. And so like, this big nuanced concept, because I hadn't spent enough time kind of breaking down all the layers of that. They imparted a bunch of their own context onto that word. And I think sometimes we do that in education, where like, we shorthand stuff, and we don't realize that we do it. And then as we have these pre service teachers coming in, they just get the short handed version of all of that complicated meaning. So that's my, like, add on to that.
Megan Nix:Yeah, that makes me think of the term like right now, it's, you hear it everywhere, like it's about relationships, build relationships with your students, like, you know, relationships have to come first, which I totally agree with. But I think that there are differences in the nuances of what that actually means and what that word means in sometimes, like, when a brand new teacher walks into a classroom, and you know, in there, and they're struggling with behaviors, or management, or just, you know, all sorts of things, or kids pushing back, and people say to them, like, just really keep it in that relationship. And then sometimes they reach a point, and they're like, I had lunch with them. And I've done all these things that like, you know, are great, but it just kind of shows there's a difference and understanding, even with that term that we you know, don't it like, yeah, there's just so many layers to that, that I think that's a great point.
Ashley O'Neil:Yeah, and their life experience, I think just brings a lot to the table, like, we talked about this in a lunch meeting we had last week where they may have to unlearn a lot of examples from their own upbringing. And we know ACU as a project based teacher know the power of like test experiences of experiencing something and then applying that knowledge to like a link of vocabulary terms. So if you've experienced stations for six years in elementary school, and it meant something really like structured, and really kind of, you know, driven, then when I say, Okay, we're going to try some stations, your default mode is going to be to go back to what you experience for all of those really formative years. And, like the education system, is having to fight all of these competing experiences that teachers have to and I think that remembering that and remembering like, Are you struggling with like what is perceived as chaos here? Because you had a lot of control in your upbringing and like in your own classroom experience, or are things out of hand and like, reflecting back to self is not something we always talk about in terms of like, like, you could, it could be your opinion, and maybe you need to think through why you're thinking things that way versus I'm the teacher I know the right way. This is what we're doing this how we're moving forward because I'm supposed to be the expert in this space. I'm the grown up. But that's complicated. Yeah. Okay, so what are some non negotiables now that guide your practice?
Megan Nix:Oh, I'm one of them is that the kids kids come first, always 100% In all honesty, You're making like what is best for the kids as a whole and the student as an individual. And it's not always, even, in fact, rarely the same. And choice is probably another one. For me, I think it's incredibly important that kids have choice in not just how they're learning, but what they're learning how it's like how they're being assessed how they're being asked to share what they're learning, I think it's really important that they have some choice in that and that that individuality is respected. And I think that even goes as far as choice in, in where they're at in the classroom and how they you know, where they sit, or how their body space is, in order to allow them to function. Now, it goes back to that like thinking, you know, everybody has to sit in your chair to, to read this book, or to do this thing and just realizing that, like, they deserve to have choice and what's comfortable for them. So even into the little things, and trying to think of the right word for this next that like, I guess what comes to mind first is respect. I, I think it's super important that in all decisions that are being made in the classroom in regards to like everything from planning units to what we're asking kids to do to how the classroom is managed. It's respecting the students as human beings, not the opposite of just like assuming like I am, I am the teacher, I am the coach walking into the room, I am whatever and that like, you know, it's respecting the fact that there are people who can make choices to and even though sometimes those like, choices might result in some consequences or things like that, but like they still have the right to make choices and not have things forced upon them. So I guess,
Ashley O'Neil:yeah, those responses that you've shared, were really thoughtful and working with teachers in the way that we do. Oftentimes, we get the the not pushback, per se, but maybe question or concern of like, well, doesn't, isn't that a binary like, this will result in chaos? If we give students choice? Like, the outcome of this is chaos, and you're in a space right now, where you have you work with students, and I'm assuming if that's your kind of like front philosophy, then that's the way you interact with students. And that's the way to encourage you know, some of your fellow teachers to interact with students. What do you see as the outcomes like when you give students a lot of flexibility and space and choice in the classroom? Is the result chaos? Or how could you How would you kind of express that
Megan Nix:I like fully would say, if you just walk in and say everybody just gets to do whatever you want, then you probably are aligning yourself to that, I think there are ways to give choice and still be a guide in that because they are like they are still kids, right? So there's that that framing thinking of like when I say, choice for students, I don't mean that they just always get to pick whatever they want. And however they want to do it. And but that's different, right. And that can give we were just talking about language like that can give that perception. So but I think when choice is given to kids in a supported and scaffolded way, when it's given to them with you there as guidance, and having made clear that you trust, like they've got to trust for you that you're going to catch them if their choice doesn't work, right, and that the environment is safe for them to make that choice because it's supported and encouraged. And, you know, we're all asking questions and being curious and things like that. I've seen it results in so much just engagement and ownership of learning for kids like where then they they are coming back to you and asking questions that you never would have thought of, and they're coming back to you with ideas and things they want to do, or they're coming to you and telling you about something they just went off and did completely on their own. That is just so amazing and so impressive. I think when you start to let them have choice, it that equals ownership of themselves, which then it equals ownership of their learning. And so you're getting so much more out of their schooling experience for them because of that, because now, they're not just they're learning because you told them, This is what it is. And this is how you're going to do it. And this is what it's going to look like when you're done. When all of that is opened up for them. There's just so much more invested in what it is that they're learning and that they're doing while they're at school. And so the payoff is tenfold and I have seen it in kids that it lasts a lot longer too.
Ashley O'Neil:Yeah, I had a conversation actually with my spouse. And we were talking a little bit about something like that. Like what if there is a time when it's like choice is not on the table right like time is finite. So sometimes there is a hard end like a hard end to things are like there are some physical limitations to learning and I said, you know, I wonder what it looks like then, if you can be really transparent about the things that cannot be adjusted and then offer room for choices and give them all the flexibility within those parameters while recognizing like, here are the non negotiables. Do you see that with some of your PBL stuff where like, there are some hard lines, and I don't mean hard lines like this has to be done by this thing, but like time is finite, like, things need to be wrapped up before winter break type stuff. And then do you have those types of conversations when it comes to your PBL? Unit?
Megan Nix:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, a kind of a robust, ready to go PBL unit is going to include all of those things like it's going to, you know, it's framed by a driving question that in itself gives some constraint to that choice, because, like, the end goal is set for you, right, so that in itself kind of brings choice a little bit back in. And it like, always includes many deadlines, or check in points, like feedback and peer interaction and critique is those that are all huge through lines with project based learning. So that's always there, it's the, it's, it creates, for them, this sense of like, what the real world really does look like, you know, like today's perfect example of like, knowing we're gonna, you know, sit down, and I have this thing that I'm doing today, and it's scheduled at this time to have this conversation. But like, I got complete choice in how I wanted that to look, right, like this time that we're sitting in right now, like, I got to choose where I was going to be, to be here and be successful with it, and like all of these things, but I still I didn't get to just have the choice of like, I'm gonna wait and like do that next week, right. So like, when you're creating a PBL unit, or I mean, even not a project based learning unit, it's possible to do this just with when you are looking at content, if you say to the kids, like, you know, we're gonna free explore about this, or we're gonna explore and I'm gonna give you six or seven choices of like, what material you might look at, to learn about this concept. But there can't there's has to be an angle with that there has to be like, and tomorrow, we're going to have a discussion. So you get choice today, and how you would like to learn about this to get yourself ready for this goal. And that's where it becomes like not chaos, right is in your guiding them by giving real world expectations like life, it comes with deadlines, it comes with things that you need to be ready and prepared for ahead of time. So we can still create those situations for kids that give those parameters and success criteria. But open it, when you're more clear about that stuff, I think it makes it easier to open it up to let them decide how they want to get there.
Julie Cunningham:It's funny that you gave that example about yourself again, because I was thinking that same thing. Like as adults, if we lost all the control that we like to take from students, all the parameters that we like to say, are constraints we'd like to put on students, if we did that to one of our work days, we'd be like, Oh, my gosh, what just happened here, somebody asked me what to do all day. Like, I think I would lose it right. So why we think that that that's okay for to do to another even small human being right. And other human being period is just kind of amazing, because most of us would be very unhappy in that situation.
Megan Nix:Well, and adding to that, though, I think a lot of us could probably think about a time in our life where we suddenly had all of this freedom, and we were not quite ready for it yet. I mean, I know I can think of examples where I was like, all sudden, here you are, and like, you know, and my life experiences had not I had, you know, you fail in those early years, because that's my figuring out. So the other thing that I that I definitely embrace now and didn't early on in my career is that fact that like, by giving these things to kids, by giving that choice by opening things up a little bit by respecting their own, just human uniqueness earlier on, we're providing them a safe environment to start to learn how to handle when things don't work out when they missed that deadline, when the choice they made didn't get them to where they want it to be. Before they like it's much higher stakes. Right. So I think, you know, we hear stories all the time about kids heading off to college and not being quite ready for all of that or heading out into the real world or, you know, I just as adults, we can we have all seen those examples where we've been those examples. And so I think part of thinking about school and education and reframing a little bit to focus more on these things. We're setting them up for greater success when it's their turn to head out into the world and be tackling all of the things.
Julie Cunningham:That's a good point. And that kind of scaffolds for them right along the age appropriate. I know age appropriate way along along the path. Yeah.
Ashley O'Neil:So I think the last question that I wanted to touch on today was some like resources or mentors or experiences that have been like formative to your teaching, because I think we've established our learning as educators does not stop when we graduate with our degree. And so I would just like to hear a little bit from you about what those things Have been for you?
Megan Nix:Sure, um, I, a lot of that, for me has like, It's come a lot from the world of project based learning, and that some of the learning there has definitely, it's carried over into a lot of places, right, the idea of, I've started thinking about, it's not even just project based learning, like, it's just it's inquiry, it's true curiosity. So I had was very lucky and got to visit High Tech High in San Diego. And watch, there's a film called who most likely to succeed. But, and it just that was my first experience with seeing that, like school, didn't have to look like everybody inside of this classroom at this time, like doing all of the exact same things following the same schedule some of that, like I, you know, some real actual life examples of standing in the middle of a hallway and watching like, kids come out of four different classrooms and all over this, like common area that they had. And they, they all just like came out, no adults present got together, and they're like, boom, like more focused than I had probably like, seeing myself and some of my colleagues be in some downtime. And just like, I distinctly remember a moment who's standing in the middle of the hallway there on that visit, and looking around and thinking like, This is amazing. Like, they almost don't, you know, and so it just kind of grew, it grew from there. So a lot of work around project based learning with some of those like, influences. John Spencer is another one, I've spent a lot of time just kind of following his work around choice and inquiry and letting kids like explore their passions in the classroom. And there's just some really powerful stuff there. And have been lucky enough to kind of build a professional connection with him as well. And he's done some work with our school. So that has definitely continued to grow my just thinking around a lot of these things. And then if I'm being completely like, open and honest, the idea of just acknowledging and seeing kids, as human beings really like has come from my own two kiddos, my youngest looks at the world differently than a lot of kids sitting inside of his classroom do. And that has been just a really interesting journey, not just as a mom, but to think about as a teacher, like kids within my building. And where I work in classrooms where I am, are thinking about kids in classrooms that I had at one point that just see the world differently, approach things differently. And so that that has been just kind of huge and eye opening for me too, in realizing that like, just seeing the world through his eyes, and some of his experiences has shaped a lot of what I see in regards to kids being people and that uniqueness and that just appreciating their humaneness a little bit.
Ashley O'Neil:I think that goes a lot back to what you were saying about informal time with kids, right? Like you didn't start off with your youngest son in a classroom like trying to teach him how to read a phonics reader. And you had a lot of really informal, non pressured time to just observe and view and I like that idea about taking the time to observe students without like a specific outcome in mind. Because then that's when you really get to see the opportunity. We have a couple of our stomach scholars who regularly volunteered after school programs or have been summer camp counselors, and we have noticed just within us as a, as a whole center, we've said Man, those students just get kids in a way that's so mature or so beyond what we would expect it like a 19 or 20 year old and I think it comes from a little bit of that of like that, that time with kids that time away from the pressure of an assessment or grade or something that lets you really view them.
Julie Cunningham:This has been an episode of teach wonder. Thank you for listening. You can find links in the show notes and a full transcript of this episode is available on our site.