Teach Wonder
Teach Wonder
What's Your Relationship to Stress?
Brandis Ansley is a faculty member at Central Michigan University in the special education department. Prior to getting her PhD, Brandis worked in the mental health field and as a special education teacher. This podcast explores the ways in which stress affects, students, teachers, and the education system.
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Okay, now we're recording so welcome to teach wonder. Wonder podcast hosted by Ashley O'Neill and Julie Cunningham.
Ashley O'Neil:When I was a young teacher, I answered emails late at night, I wrapped stations home to cut out on the weekends and spent much of my summer organizing my classroom space and researching new and effective strategies for my students. I would get to school at least an hour before the day started. Because the small times of prep that I had, would give me time to lesson plan, or grade, or make copies and run to the restroom or work with a student one on one. Never all those things though. And honestly, it didn't truly touch on the pile of work that I would need to do to feel ready to lead a group of kids for seven hours a day. I always thought okay, once I've been doing this for a while, it would start to become less consuming. And after a few years it did. And it didn't. Because with every new class, there were new things to learn, the more comfortable I got with my curriculum, and the more committees I was assigned to given teachers to mentor new projects to do. I've told you I was handling it all just fine. And I thought that it was I didn't mind grading papers in the couch with a coffee. My social circle was mostly teachers, so I didn't have the comparison of another way to be. And then I watched one of my dearest friends leave teaching after a few years. She had more talent and passion than anybody I knew. And the education system is still missing out on her skills today. The reason she left are hers, but they're related to our conversation today. My own last year in the classroom was as a new parent. Our baby was on a health journey. And it meant that I was missing a lot of work for doctor's appointments and unknowns. Our situation would have been difficult in a lot of professions and impossible in many. I had a wonderfully supportive administrator and helpful union rep who got me to understand the logistics of borrowing days and asking for extended time off. But as a teacher- it meant that I was leaving five year olds in a very unpredictable schedule. And I was giving worksheets because they were easier to plan for subs and stations and hands on activities. And I was forced to really look at how I made teaching work and how the stress and pressure I put on myself was not working for anybody that year. And there were things within my control that I could have changed that would have been better for me and my family and students. And there are also things out of my control that heavily impacted my ability to be effective and healthy that year. I share this today to help highlight the personal nature of teaching and the topic of stress. Caregiving and relationship- based professions require a lot of emotional input. So today, we asked brandy Ainslie, a faculty member here at CMU. To talk to us more about this topic. Brittany has made much of her professional research about stress and mental health and education. A quick note before the interview, around the 25 minute mark, you'll hear a brief reference to school violence. I'll share instructions just before that section to let you know how you can avoid it if you'd like....Welcome. We're really glad to be talking with you today. And can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself?
Dr. Brandis Ansley:All right, well, I'm in my fourth year as an assistant professor of special education at CMU. And I actually I came here from Georgia, at Georgia State University is where I got my PhD. And I, before doing that was a special education teacher in Georgia, taught in middle and high school settings, but mostly high school for eight years. And prior to that my career was actually in mental health care. And so I have some experience with both individual and group therapies, but also being a community based instructor on mental well beingissues.
Ashley O'Neil:So I already have a question that's not on our list. Because what I have a special ed degree as well, and I taught for a couple of years in the classroom. And now I obviously work at CMU, but what made you your career is kind of the foot flap, what made you go from the community therapy and group therapy back into special education in the classroom?
Dr. Brandis Ansley:Well, there were actually a number of factors that encouraged me to take that route. One of them was at the time I had young children, and I raised them mostly by myself. And so the jobs that I was looking at at the time of finishing my master's degree would have had me working till like seven or eight at night. And while we know that teachers easily can work that late too, you can at least you know, go home and be with your kids if need be. But also another thing is that one of my biggest frustrations in the Mental health care field and this may have changed since then it was over 20 years ago. But at the time, it it's like, you know, when people come to therapy, and they're not necessarily doing well, and you know, which is what a therapist is there to help with. But then when they start to feel a little bit better, they tend to drop out, and then relapse. And then also, with, I guess, with things like, time, or whatever, it seems like people's mental health pursuits, would be the first to go in a hectic world, which would likely come up in the conversation about in education as well. But one thing I liked about the idea of being a teacher was a bit more consistency and continuity. And that even includes students who tend to be absent a bit, I felt like I still had a bit more consistency with them, then with, like in clinical settings.
Ashley O'Neil:Absolutely. That makes that makes a ton of sense. I think we talk often that that's the thing we all miss the most not being directly in the classroom anymore is that I don't have a whole year or two years or three years to build relationships with students to become a constant for them. And when he talks about when you talk about building good relationships with kids, it often means time, and regular touch points. And you can do kitschy one off things to kind of build camaraderie but true relationships take a long time. And that's, that's hard to do. So in addition to teaching your classes, I know that you have a research area of interest or a topic that you kind of have a lot of passion and put a lot of time and energy into. And it focuses a lot on teacher burnout and develop. I'm just summarizing so you can clarify. But Teacher burnout and developing resilience, thinking about how stress and trauma play into the classroom. What led you to focusing on those areas? I'm sure a little bit was your community background. But can you talk a little bit more about that?
Dr. Brandis Ansley:Absolutely, I can talk all day about it. So from the beginning, you know, like you said, I did have a different professional background in working on different topics related to mental and emotional well being. But I probably should add that...(fade out)
Ashley O'Neil:Brandis has a diverse set of experiences working in the mental health field that came prior to teaching and prior to her time as a professor. This includes providing mental health support for individuals and things like cardiac rehab group classes that build new habits and stress management for individuals looking for change, long term support for ongoing mental health concerns, and one on one sessions and a university clinic. And these diverse experiences revealed an important common thread.
Dr. Brandis Ansley:one of the main things is that whether it was someone who was being treated for having an adjustment disorder, or working through a personal crisis at that time, or someone with a, a chronic mental health issue, that the one key thing to managing all of it, that they all had in common was the importance of managing stress. And that if you manage your stress, you go really far to manage just about any other condition, physical, mental, emotional, and nature. And so that always stuck with me. But then when I became a teacher, I pretty quickly saw that the culture is very different for education than it is for other human services providers. Now, yes, it is stressful to everyone who provides Human Services. So I definitely am not trying to diminish the stress that happens to that to therapists to social workers, and so forth. But one key difference is that in education that was almost ignored, whereas in like psychology and social work, one of the big things in preparation is you must take care of your well being in order to take care of others in the education field. And like in school settings, there wasn't a lot of talk about issues of stress or how it's affecting one's well being or one's performance, or in a lot of cases, the students and how it affects our students. And so I was so surprised to see a very essential psychological factor left out of that. I eventually started having issues with burnout. And it's like, I knew better from my previous experience, but it's like I still forgot. I'm also I should add that it's not just experience as a, as a professional from the psychology field, but also for as long as I can remember having my own mental health battles. And so it, so it's professional, but it's also personal to me. And I will say that, probably right, right in that last year that I was a teacher, I didn't know it was going to be my last year because the opportunity to pursue my PhD and go, the route of higher education was a complete surprise to me. But after having some experiences where it had a very, very deleterious effect on my well being and my self esteem, but also my physical health, and so I knew that I needed to go back to that aspect that I was very familiar with. And, you know, start practicing again, what I really, truly believe in, and I did start to feel better. But then I, then I went on to the Ph. D. program. And so I like to add that in, especially when I'm working in a professional development setting. Because if I'm working on this topic with people, I tried to like, like, I want to relate to them. And that yes, I have experienced it as well. But by no means do I want anyone to misunderstand that I left teaching because of burnout, because that would, that would not be very encouraging. So that's not the case at all. But as I went through my PhD program, of course, you know, at some point having to form your professional identity as a as an aspiring higher educator. And so I always had the interest in mental health. And it, it did take a little bit of convincing of my advisor at the time. But fortunately, due to the fellowship I was on my co advisor is a school psychologist. And she really did a lot to help me advocate for being able to focus on mental well being and the impact of stress and burnout on teachers and other school personnel. But then also, what was not as understood at the time, but is getting a lot more attention now is traumatic stress. And so that is a different experience, from the everyday stress have got a lot on my plate, and I'm doing a lot versus the impact of traumatic stress and how that can absolutely impact an individual
Julie Cunningham:Brandis, are there some- for everyday stress, just I have too much on my plate kind of things? If there's teachers who are listening? Are there some things that you recommend that they do to- And I know, it's got to be in within reason, right? Like everybody only has so many hours in the day, but are there some recommendations you can give?
Dr. Brandis Ansley:Absolutely. And so most of the time, that sort of stress, the way to work with that, you know, to one's benefit, it almost has a lot more to do with internal than something someone can do externally. Because a huge misconception out there is that someone like me is saying, Well, hey, you know, if you take better care of yourself, you're not going to burn out or you're not going to experience any issues. And that that would be completely false, and also offensive to teachers and other personnel who are having so many demands placed on them. And so I do want to make sure I emphasize that. That is not my philosophy at all. So I would be the last person to say, Well, hey, why won't you go take a bath and you'll be great. But what I do recommend it, the part that has to start from within. And so the question I like to ask in, like workshops and sessions, whether it's with student teachers or veterans out in the field is what is your relationship, the stress because we have relationships to things and conditions the same as we do to people. And so, it but if you make that parallel with relationships with people, that's where you get into things Like, how do you treat others, but also what treatment Do you accept from others. And so in the case of the relationship to stress, there's so many different viewpoints and and well, relationships, the stress that can either serve as a benefit, or it can exacerbate our situation. So, like, if our relationship distress is like, it's a badge of honor, or like we have to be stressed out in order to be important enough, then that's going to be problematic and maintain the issue, you know, having the courage to make sure to make yourself a priority. So that's also going to mean having that courage to say no, honestly, a lot of my suggestions aren't necessarily popular with people who supervise or train or otherwise are connected, like in a vertical relationship to teachers and school personnel, because I'm going to encourage them to draw the line and set boundaries and be real about a manageable workload. And, and be willing to say, I did the best I could. Sometimes that doesn't gain favor with the people who you know, and I also suspect that it's not something to say like if principals we're going to have me talk to their staff and whatnot, that would be a reason not to have me talk to them. Because, because, yes, be unafraid to say no, and be very selective about what you agree to and say yes to it. Teachers also tend to be achievers. And so there's a lifelong track record of not just doing well, but often doing better than their peers with like an academic settings, but also, like some a bit of that competitive spirit. So there's also the self comparison that goes on, that's not necessarily good for us. And also, well, just a history of people being happy with them. And so that perpetuates this tendency to agree to take on things or to feel liketo feel like everyone else's situation is your responsibility to maintain. Also, teachers tend to have a lot of empathy. And that's also, you know, in addition to some being people pleasers, and not wanting to lose favor with someone that they are subordinate to, but also, just because when you don't do what other people want you to do, and you have a lot of empathy. Well, you feel their unhappiness too. And so, um, so when I say setting boundaries, it Yes, it is external in terms of not agreeing to certain things or, or saying to someone, look, this is what I did on like XYZ situation. This is the most I could come up with, with what I'm balancing all at once. It is largely that, but it's also those boundaries internally, and being being comfortable enough with yourself that that you will put yourself first. Because other people and I'm not even saying people are, I guess being mean to you or mistreating you. I mean, I think this also comes from well intentioned people. And it's just this tendency that the more a person does for you, the more we expect from them, versus appreciation. So the appreciation tends to go down while the expectations go up. And so that's why it's so important to be okay with knowing that everyone else is not going to be happy. And if anyone's listening if they happen to be working on on that aspect of themselves working on prioritizing their own needs, then they might find that people and even loved ones, they might find that their response to them is not very favorable at first. And sometimes things when you set a new boundary and work on something to ultimately make things better for yourself. The conditions feel worse before they feel better.
Ashley O'Neil:My goodness that- yeah, I, I had to mute myself because I find myself like nodding along verbally with you. And I agree. And I think that tolerating other people's maybe disappointment's too strong a word but tolerating other people's reaction to your boundary, because you are you are maybe putting someone else out or not, you didn't get that done. So someone else has to do it or someone else is gonna be on the committee because you're not. You have to tell it like tolerate that discomfort, which can be really hard when you're used to caring about everybody, and you got into the profession because you care. And you want to help and you want to be helpful. But yeah, so so great. So spot on.
Dr. Brandis Ansley:Thank you. Well, and also adding to that point about, if you're not the person agreeing to do it, that means someone else has to do it, which I know that's half the battle is the guilt you feel because, well, if I would just do this, I would make someone else's life much easier. But to add to that, especially right now, it is important to remind everyone that, you know, sometimes there's that feeling of "Well, I have to do it, because there's only so many other people, there's no one else to do it but me." But even though issues like being short staffed and whatnot are I mean, it's not something that has been controllable, and it probably will take some time to remedy that situation. But it is also not solely your responsibility to try to be two or three different people, because we're short staffed, it's just not reasonable. And it's definitely not sustainable for the long run.
Ashley O'Neil:And you picking up this the the empty spots, and taking every prep and recess and lunch break to do that. There are things that are within your realm of control. And then there are the system, the systems problems, right like that we don't have an infrastructure to support. The school system has been surviving, because everybody's overcompensating for its own systems failures. And that's not sustainable either. But that's hard when you're looking into the eyes of a six year old or a 15 year old, it's, it's it's hard to be in that tense space.
Dr. Brandis Ansley:Oh, yeah. And that is what gets those of us as educators sometimes would be that, as we're setting boundaries, the group of people that we don't want to, to hinder would be our students, because they are only going to be in that phase of life for that period of time. So that probably, I would argue, is the most challenging group to prioritize ourselves over. But at the same time, if, if we aren't putting our needs first, we don't have anything to give all those many cliches now about the oxygen mask on the airplane, or the pouring from the empty cup or whatever, that those are all absolutely true.
Julie Cunningham:I Brandis I love your how you started the conversation regarding having a relationship with stress because so much about teaching and education is built on relationships with our colleagues or our students or the parents that we work with or whomever our audiences and I never really thought about having a relationship. I mean, certainly you think about having a relationship with yourself, but never how my relationship with stress or some something else along those lines, affects me and how it could be depending upon how you see yourself handling stress or or inviting stress or, or reveling in stress. Right? Maybe I don't know, how that affects one. That's really an interesting thing to think about.
Dr. Brandis Ansley:Yeah, absolutely. Well, and even the part about, like stress, like, like, let's say, the reveling in stress, another part of it too is the wind stress has become a conditioned habit. And so meaning that people who you know get to a point where they realize that this was not the way they wanted to live their life or or the way that they had been, which by now might be for a couple of years, I mean even before COVID If these habits have been established, and you realize, Well I never wanted to live a life where I'm working all the time and do very little for me or or find that I'm struggling to find time with my family and and so forth.
Ashley O'Neil:So you talked a little-Brandis I want to pivot because you did bring up traumatic stress a little bit. And we've talked about day to day stress. And I think that it'd be fair to say that pre 2020, teachers had a mix of traumatic stress and day to day stress. And I think that 2020 has probably moved a lot more people toward having some very traumatic teaching experiences or personal experiences. So I wonder if you could talk a little bit, like define that a little bit, and then maybe talk a little bit more of what that looks like with your research.
Dr. Brandis Ansley:Okay, and, yes, the part about there being more of that from the pandemic onward. Yes. Um, though, I would also say that there was more that before that went unrecognized or unidentified. But as far as traumatic stress, and what distinguishes that from the stress of the day to day grind, and such, is that traumatic stress can result from either a single event, or a complex series of traumatic events.
Ashley O'Neil:If you'd like to avoid the topic of school violence in this conversation, skip to the 30 minute mark now.
Dr. Brandis Ansley:And so the part about direct trauma, when I say it's easy, not an easy situation, just easy to recognize. So like in, say, like the unfortunate case of like school violence, that is very easily recognized that you and the other students, anyone involved, especially if they witnessed it, but really, if they're, you know, in the building at all, and got any portion of that even hearing things, then that is pretty widely recognized as a traumatic experience. And you're going to have traumatic stress, and it's going to affect you in a significant way. Because traumatic stress is a normal and valid response to an extraordinary and not normal event. And so, but something that has been recognized in other behavioral health settings, even like modern medicine, like health care, even law enforcement and such, but was not given as much recognition and education would be secondary traumatic stress. And so, by secondary traumatic stress, you are experiencing that by getting the details of the traumatic event. So you weren't present for it. But you get that information. And it haunts you, or teachers and school personnel have vicarious traumatic stress, very similar to secondary and that it's indirect, but the vicarious part meaning that you are experiencing a traumatic response, because of the manifestations of another person who has experienced trauma. So let's say the student has faced trauma, especially in cases of complex and ongoing trauma. And that comes out in the form of behavior problems, behavior that is, perhaps verbally and physically abusive to school staff, which may be behavior that that student has been on the receiving end of, but that exposure to all those manifestations, would also be a type of traumatic stress. And so by, by recognizing that, I mean, sometimes that is the key first step in taking care of yourself, because we'll just say, you know, I referred to a school shooting I know that's, you know, pretty widely known, have an event here in Michigan with us. And I had, I mean, just one example would be a graduate student who did not teach at that school, but she taught in a nearby school and has connections to that community. And she was so apologetic about not being able to come to an optional live session and needing an extension on assignments needing some flexibility. And she even included the statement. I know that sounds silly. And so I very quickly did everything I could to validate her, her condition, her experience But, but I also think, you know, this example is reflective of how quick we may be to dismiss our own experience of trauma. And in order to heal from it, we have to really recognize it, though and accept that it's okay that we are not okay. Um,
Ashley O'Neil:I was thinking about I did have a question, Julie, before we move on, if that's okay, so I was thinking about the trip stress related trauma. And I think it's tough because we're teachers are in a unique position, I think from other jobs, where people are often pouring out into them, right, like these little people are these big people that are so little people are coming into their, their classrooms every day and are relying on them to be a source of content and structure. And so often we hear, we either hear stories that are very traumatic, that have happened to those students and or we're on the receiving end of some behaviors that result from the trauma in their lives. And it's our job to kind of maintain composure and to be the grownup or to have to maintain calm in that situation to help that student navigate through it. But then there's nobody there to help us navigate through the emotions that we're feeling. At the end of the day, I remember going home a lot, and not really wanting to talk at home, but feeling really drained emotionally, and really sad and tired, because there was nobody to help me process all of the things that I help that child process, is that what you're talking about?
Dr. Brandis Ansley:Well, that would definitely be part of it. And, you know, when I became a teacher, that was the first time in my life that I started ignoring my phone, and not taking calls, and like letting it go to voicemail. And so you know, and at that point, people were still using the phone to talk on. So that that was one factor. But, um, but yeah, I can remember feeling like, I just needed to not speak to anyone for a while, or like, I needed to not have so much output for me, because there was the output earlier on. Or even times I can remember when my kids were in middle school, and you know, I can't get these years back. But if I could, I definitely would have been more patient. But the last thing I wanted to do was, was work on homework, after working with kids all day, and I loved my students, I, you know, I always had that's been the best part about teaching and about being a professor. But after working with students all day, who, who had very particular learning needs, and then to go home and having nobody, when you are the teacher, like that cliche phrase, the buck stops here. And then it's like, so where does the teacher go. And it does help. Of course, it's always great to have a strong social support network. But at the same time, we also have to be aware that people who are not educators, they don't quite understand. If we have like a social network of other teachers who understand, then that that part is absolutely great. And I think it is nice to lean on each other. But we also have to make sure we understand the line between supporting each other and becoming just an outright gripe session and making us feel worse and nothing getting better.
Ashley O'Neil:This part rings so true. On top of having a social system that may not truly understand the education system from the inside out. We often have sensitive information that can be tangled up in our stress. And so we lean on other teachers, and the familiarity of that group of fellow teachers can mean the honesty is there, but she's right. I was in too many situations where I would leave more fired up about a situation after talking to a group of coworkers. And that was no one's fault. So how do we reframe our approach to stress in a way that is helpful to us and maintains the privacy of our students?
Dr. Brandis Ansley:Something that I've included in my intervention that I've, which I've, it's got limited research behind it, but some of the preliminary feedback I've received that they say has helped is It doesn't even involve another person. It's just the part about de escalating ourselves. We're de escalating students all day. And maybe at times, we're de escalating other staff. But the part about self de escalation would mean that after a particularly stressful day, which seems to have gotten to be almost every day now would be things like doing the absolute minimum that you have to do that day, it's so important that that after school time is restoritive to you. I know that's hard to sell that on, say, like parents of young children, because you do have responsibilities when you get home. But I was, I was there before too. And into that, I would say, make sure to at least, you know, include some fun family time and it not all having to be about getting this test done that test done, the dishes can stay in the sink a little bit longer. I mean, if you have to get to where you're just watching it, because you need it, there's no more clean dishes left. It's not, maybe it's not ideal, but it's not the worst thing in the world when your health needs are more pressing than the need to have a perfectly clean house.
Julie Cunningham:I was wondering Brandis, it seems that and probably mental health still is not getting enough attention. And there certainly are not enough providers, especially I know, for adolescents right now. But nonetheless, it seems like mental health gets a little bit more attention than maybe it has over the last 10 years. And there is there also the shift to it being okay to look for services or to ask for help.
Dr. Brandis Ansley:I believe that we have come very far. And I say this as someone who is in the mental health care field at I like to get dramatic and say at the turn of the century. But but you know, even from say, like the early 2000s. And I would say even from when I was last in the classroom, 2012. That was 10 years ago. And we have really come a long way as a, I mean, I guess at least in developed nations, and recognizing mental health as being a factor that's just as real, even if it doesn't show up on like a concrete assessment, or you can't see a picture of it or doesn't necessarily show up on a blood test. I mean, it can do to its connection to physical well being. But as far as directly, things like depression, anxiety, not only are they real, but they're also pretty common. And so I do think that things have gotten much better. I would say also as a higher ed faculty, with students who are mostly of traditional college student age, so they are mostly Generation Z. And that generation is less deterred by stigma. And they do very well in recognizing the legitimacy of mental health. And so it you know, and as their professor, I support it, and like I accept if you have to miss class from a mental health episode, just as much as if you have COVID. And so there is that but but also going a little further than that, not just say like younger generation recognizing it, but even people of my generation Generation X and, and it does seem mostly women are identifying that more freely now being more open about mental health experiences. And I know I mentioned something earlier in the conversation about me having lifelong mental health challenges. And I, I would say that I well, I sometimes say that I was built for these times, so I could be present for people because these past few years have definitely not been my hardest. And so I you know, I have beliefs about it being like a purpose driven thing. But also what I want to add is I was not always so open about it, and I did have a period of time where I worried about appearing incompetent, or like I've I have had people who were aware of different diagnoses I had? Often question my decision making or question. I mean, even something as simple as showing a little bit of agitation or aggravation with someone, and then that turned into, Oh, am I having an episode? And, and no, I, I can still be a legitimate person who experiences the range of emotions that are pretty common. And, and so I think we know that better now, on the flip side of it, because a response like that is usually followed with, but we still have far to go. And, um, you know, anytime we talk about progress on any topic, and just like any topic, same thing here, we do still have far to go there. You know, I make the mistake very often of reading comments on social media. And, but also, that's where people are not being filtered. And you see, like, how does the public perceive these different topics, and there are so many not sympathetic to the challenges of educators and and I suspect that they not only don't have that experience, but can't possibly be close to anyone who does to have to share that perspective, or like anyone can be a teacher or are teachers knew what they signed up for? No, there's so much going on that they did not sign up for. And, and so I know that there still is...there still are perceptions out there. And still far too many that are not supportive of mental health and mental well being. And, therefore can be a hindrance to either getting help that's needed such as, like professional help, or even our own pursuits of taking care of ourselves. It's a hindrance, if you let it get to you that there's a number of people who still who still confuse vulnerability with weakness, or being genuine and authentic with being too soft.
Ashley O'Neil:I would also say it's important to - and this is coming from my own experience, I had to remind myself that I'm not my kids' teacher. And so the relationship I can have with them can be more familiar, less formal, less goal-oriented, more relationship-based, right? Like, I'm invested in a different way. And it's okay if I cash it in, and where we're not doing homework tonight. And I say, you know, what, if you want to do it, great, but I can't be there and help you in that right now. Or our relationship is more important. And I know that I'm gonna tank this with you if I tried to help you with your math problems. And I think that's, that's hard to turn that off. Because we have that pressure. And often times our colleagues are teaching our kids and so that just one more closed loop in this goldfish are like this, this fishbowl bubble of everybody having their their eyes on our family. But that is really important.
Dr. Brandis Ansley:Well, why it does matter to them. And this is whether they have children or not, is that education, that is the one issue that affects everybody. And it ultimately does whether you're closely connected, because you have a child in the local public school system, or if you never have kids at all. And so ironically, even when it comes to elections, and such, education may get some mention, but it's never like the top issue. And, but of all issues, everybody benefits when everyone around them, or most people around them have a solid education.
Ashley O'Neil:Absolutely. And like I think about even you may not have children, but you're you request services on a regular basis from people who have children or were children and grew up in the education system in your neighborhood. And, and those children eventually become the real estate agents and the grocers and the the doctors in the sanitation department. And and we are community and that way. I want to make sure I get a chance to address all these things. I think we've talked about this a little bit, but is there anything else you wanted to add about how you would address pushback or different opinions? And maybe this time, and you can disagree with me, but maybe this time, like even different different opinions from that kind of vertical alignment side because there are things that teachers themselves can address and then there's a bigger system that needs to support support this topic too.
Dr. Brandis Ansley:Yes, it is definitely a thing that I definitely have a response but it's another response that I have trouble just getting right to the point on because it's really loaded. Because when people say that we need systemic changes, we need better policy. teachers and other school personnel deserve a very viable work context where they can perform at their best. And, you know, a naturally students getting the best quality possible. And I wholeheartedly agree. And often, that would make the biggest difference of the people who have the most power, would listen to people doing the work, and make policies and such consistent with what the people who are doing these things every day are saying, because who better to inform them. But at the same time, just, you know, from my perspective, as a former mental health professional is that ultimately, we do still have an individual responsibility to take care of ourselves, I would never go as far as to say, a teacher or staff member who's having either a miserable experience or they don't feel well, or they're overworked, I would not blame it on them, if that's happening to them. And it actually infuriates me a bit when I find out that people in power, use things like self care and well being as a weapon against their staff. Because that's absolutely not the intention of those of us trying to promote it. But as far as the individual level, at the end of the day, it is the only thing that someone can control. I mean, I would say we do need to keep advocating for better policies and those changes at the top. But we also can't wait on that. And for anyone who's working in a situation. And, you know, like I said, it doesn't have to be, like super dramatic, such as a horrible admin to work for. I mean, you can even experience this if you're working with wonderful people and, and taking on the demands. And so really, after all these years, I mean, there's about 40 years of research on teacher burnout, and what this, what this does, and it's, I mean, of course, the nature of it, and what that looks like has changed over the years. But it's been an issue for years. And so I think we're long overdue for trusting that things are going to change in our favor. And we're going to have to try and shift this culture from the ground up. There are also way more many teachers, staff, members, other educational professionals than there are people in charge.
Julie Cunningham:So Brandis, then are there ways that we can or should be or do teach that for pre service teachers. Besides I know you mentioned modeling for your students, right, that the empathy that they acknowledging the trauma that they have, and allowing them some flexibility in terms of assignments and things, but besides the modeling, or in addition to the modeling, is there another way in which we can offer them that?
Dr. Brandis Ansley:Yes, and this is not necessarily a popular opinion, at this point. I do hope it can be more understood. But certainly as teacher educators, we also have a responsibility to our contribution to the culture of the education field, even though we're not in the K 12 schools, you know, other than if you have a supervisory role, but but we also have a responsibility in what do we promote to our pre service teachers, but but also, and this might be more of what we're talking about here is our practices as teacher educators, and I think we need to look at how much do we promote growing culture and external indicators of achievement or appearances versus the well being of our students, candidates, and even in like our programming, which we have great programs at CMU and we put some of the best teachers in Michigan and the whole United States they come from us. So we are doing a lot of things right When I say this teacher educators overall, whether here whether elsewhere, we do have to ask ourselves if we're promoting grind culture, are we? are we sending a message that the volume of work or stress as a badge of honor, sometimes candidates tell me that they hear things like, like, well, oh, well, that you're drowning in all these demands, because that's how the field is. And from my perspective, just because the fields that way doesn't mean we have to promote it, we have an opportunity to help shift the culture with by training teachers who have a well being mindset and prioritize their needs, knowing that it is paramount to be able to meet the needs of everyone else. And so we can be part of the shift. Even things like program requirements, I, I would love it, it can be argued that this is my bias, because that's what I study, or that's what I like. But I'm also saying this as a researcher who has data, who is familiar with other researchers and their data, and even outside of education, what I know about mental and emotional well being is that if I think we probably could scale back some of the on paper requirements and make more room for wellbeing, promoting or the teacher as a person, even if we don't talk about it in like well being every single time, but even how they as a teacher, are empowered to be the best they can even different personalities of teachers and how different ones contribute versus trying to fit into a preconceived idea that other people have what a teacher should be. So just focusing on the teacher as a human being and having more of that and our programming, I think, could I say our again, I want to say, I'm even saying outside of CMU, just the field overall, I think that that would go very far. And maybe even force changes, because the people coming into the field, that's what they're demanding.
Ashley O'Neil:I want to end this episode with a question to you the listener, how does this conversation relate to the teacher shortage that we're currently experiencing? Now, before you get too far down that road, I want to think about something else with you. When problems show up in a community, it's easy to point fingers and place blame and to pick a reason is easy to take our own experiences and declare them to be the experiences of the majority. And when it comes to education, it's extra tricky because most community members are involved or have a perception of being involved in that system. Every adult is a former child and will have memories and a history with school, which is great and not the full picture. I know what it was like to be a student in my county in the window of time that I attended. More specifically, I know what it was like to be a white female, who loved music and did well on school assessments in that time in my community. So even my own experiences can't encompass the reality of what everyone was feeling and going through at that time. As community members were close enough to education to feel like we get it and far enough from it to truly understand. So it's easy to say things like well, if we just or if they could only spout off I'll be solutions to what we think the problem is. So as you consider how this conversation relates the teacher shortage and the future of education and what it's like to be a student right now. I'm going to ask you to consider your relationship to school in the past and the present and the future. We'd love to hear your thoughts on this episode. You can email us at cese at cmich.edu If you learned something today, please feel free to share this with a friend or colleague. Teach wonder is brought to you by the Center for Excellence in STEM Education.