Teach Wonder

Small Groups, Big Impact: Elliciting Student Thinking

January 30, 2022 The Center for Excellence in STEM Education Season 2 Episode 2
Teach Wonder
Small Groups, Big Impact: Elliciting Student Thinking
Show Notes Transcript

In this companion episode, we're returning to Mr. G and Mrs. Peach's classroom. This time, Julie joins the conversation to look at the ways in which Mr. G elicits student thinking. As a former secondary teacher, Julie has some fresh perspectives to share as she watches and elementary math lesson. This episode includes discussions on differentiation, Core Teaching Practices, engagement, and teacher decision making.

Links:
Companion Episode: Season 2, Episode 1
Core Teaching Practices

Intro Music by: David Biedenbender

Other Music found on Pixabay by: 
madirfin
Coma-media
EvgenyBardyzha

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Julie Cunningham:

Welcome to Teach Wonder

Ashley O'Neil:

Welcome back! If you're a first time listener, we're so excited to have you join us. You're welcome to start here. But please know that this is a companion episode to Episode one of season two. I'll share a quick recap in just a minute. But you may want to go back and listen to that episode to get a full picture. So in episode one, we met teaching partners, Mrs. Peach and Mr. G. to third grade teachers whose room layout and teaching style means that they do a significant amount of planning and teaching together. Over the course of several weeks, I visited their classroom and captured six seven, I don't know quite a few hours of footage from both rooms, footage that had them during their planning time It caught transitions with students, but it focused primarily on their small group math instruction. And episode one I took you along as I reflected on what I noticed and learned from watching Mrs. Peach and Mr. G teach, but I focused primarily on Mrs. Peach. This week, I asked Julie to join me for a bit of a different approach. I chose for video segments of Mr. G teaching a few of him and giving whole group instructions and directions and to have him teaching students in small groups. She and I then sat down to talk.

Julie Cunningham:

So you want me to stay over here do you know I

Ashley O'Neil:

think I want you to come a little bit closer. This season, we're tying our episodes together by highlighting various core teaching practices each time. With Mrs. Peach I focused a bit on eliciting and interpreting student thinking and how that looked in her room. But I primarily reflected on how she coordinated and adjusted instruction during a lesson. And Julie watched Mr. G, she chose to focus on how he elicited and interpreted individual student thinking. Before I let her get too far into specifics, though, I was interested to hear her general impressions.

Julie Cunningham:

Already, like I was waiting for you to record, but I understand-

Ashley O'Neil:

Nope, you're good. Once we got settled, I wanted to make sure Julie was on board with our game plan.

Julie Cunningham:

I'm gonna go based on my interpretation of the video, and she's gonna go based on what she knows to have been happening in the classroom. And so first of all, I do want our listeners to know that this was it was really fun to watch. I mean, it's really exciting. The kids are super earnest and engaged in math problems and understanding and interacting with Mr. G. So hopefully that comes across in our podcast today. So what a couple things that I noticed, I was watching small groups, and I was noticing that the groups seem set up in a particular manner. And the directions were clear in terms of given to students and clear in terms of where students needed to go in the classroom to be in those small groups, and what materials they needed to have with them when they got there.

Ashley O'Neil:

I'm going to jump in and give a little more detail here. So Mr. G does give really clear directions each time. And his directions are split into two categories. First, he focuses the whole class, the content that they're going to working on that day, not the activity, but the actual learning objectives.

Mr. G:

These lessons, guys, you guys will be able to use multiplication properties, and array models to solve multiplication facts of multiplying by sex. All right, so yesterday, we had the intro and we talked about arrays a little bit, we're gonna talk about number line two today, how you guys can use a number line to do multiplication, what?...(fades)

Ashley O'Neil:

He goes into a bit of a review recalling strategies that they've learned the previous day, he then gives them an efficient, yet detailed set of directions that are activity focused.

Mr. G:

Alright, so we look up on the board. Here's what each station is going to do. So if you are in the Game Station, you guys want to go to the green Google Classroom. (fades)

Ashley O'Neil:

This is where he shares what the students need to have at each each station and walks them through with visual supports in the board exactly what they're going to do.

Mr. G:

So that is it. We're gonna start with round one. So yellow, you guys will be on the Chromebooks doing (fades)

Ashley O'Neil:

Here's Julie again.

Julie Cunningham:

So when students showed up with Mr. G, they were to have brought a whiteboard marker with them. And yes, there's some confusion back and forth and sometimes kids have to go back and get a marker, but that information was conveyed in advance to them.

Ashley O'Neil:

Yes, I do...mI want to comment because I think something else that's interesting here is that you as a secondary teacher, and this came out in the last episode, when one of the core teaching practice teachers was like, had this aha moment and what she said small groups mean something different in high school than they do in elementary school. And I know that there are some crossovers in terms of, like intent and purpose. But you've been out of the classroom for a little bit, but your teaching was always in secondary. Does it surprise you? Or do you find it interesting, the way that small groups are set up? And what amount is directed every time what the students are capable of every time in terms of remembering these protocols? Or does that feel comfortableto you?

Julie Cunningham:

actually, that that felt really comfortable to me. In fact that it felt intentional on Mr. G's part, like this is where he'd gotten them to. And I noticed or I think I noticed based on the groupings, sort of how he knew who could do things individually in the group, right. And so all of them could do things individually, but he knew sort of who to task with things in the group individually, and allow to work on completing something completely on their own, and then talk to their neighbor, as well as who might need his assistance at some points, finishing something or getting started on something or a little bit extra direction. So his grouping seems pretty clear. And I think that's impressive, because we talk a lot in education about differentiation. So all of these students had the same content instruction from Mr. G. But not all of these students started at the same point, moved as quickly as one another's groups and or did exactly the same problems. So I'm assuming that those decisions were intentional on Mr. G's part, to allow the different groups of students to meet their needs where they were at to allow...(fades)

Mr. G:

(talks softely to students with other voices in the background) What is 12 + 24? So we could do that and subtract 6, but we also do What is 12 + 24? Yeah, becuase I don't have enough to make another 24. So what you just use your answers, 42? 42?

Ashley O'Neil:

Here, just before Mr. G brings a small group back together, you can hear what Julie's talking about. Mr. G is quietly talking with one of the students as they solve a problem together. And the other voices you hear are a few students who are talking in pairs or trios, and then one student actually counting out by counting out loud by themselves as they work on their array. Everybody's working on the same problem, but their pace, their style and their approach are all a little different.

Julie Cunningham:

So the the last sort of piece of noticing I have which I think fits in with classroom norms is that not only does Mr. G listen to the students, but the students listen to one another when they're working in small groups. So there wasn't a lot of and that that students can't contradict one another certainly they don't have to agree but there wasn't a lot of talking over one another or a lot of sort of like I'm right, you're wrong. Kind of this way Yeah, do it this way kind of correction. It really did feel like they were there to collaborate and they're in a group and they willingly shared with their neighbors and also the are finally I guess, I should say that students accepted feedback from the instructor that didn't seem that seemed to be a natural part of the small group work and of the class and it didn't seem like anyone got defensive about being corrected or-

Ashley O'Neil:

- or asking to do more to a problem clarify something. Yeah, yeah, for sure.(fades)

Mr. G:

(fades) Strategy Okay. These are all different things that you can do to learn this multiplication. So one,you guys have arrays you have groups of right you draw pictures of groups of. You guys have learned, what else have you learned? Number lines? Number lines. You can use your fingers right? (student) you can do skip counting right? Mr. G: Right! Mr. G can break seven down what two numbers that I really know how to multiply by can be added together they equal seven what two digits well you got for me Jacob. Two numbers added together equals seven. Ones I know I can multiply by.(Student- to equal 7?) To add to 7. (Student sayd 4 plue 3). 4+3, okay, but you know what, I don't really know my 4s, multiplying by fours, I don't really know those, I don't really know my multiplying by threes that well. So what other two numbers added together? You want to get a second chance? Go for it, what do you got?(student says 2+5) Two plus, because I really know how to multiply by twos. And I really, really, really know how to multiply by fives, because I learned that when I was in second grade, and it stuck with me (fades).

Ashley O'Neil:

To get a full picture of what this looks like, in the room, if you were to put it on you and just watch the camera, there was a lot of movement, lots of kids standing up, and then sitting down lots of kids changing their position, lots of kids leaning on the table, or like, just like stretching in different spaces, lots of kids like laying their chin on the desk and kind of drawing like this. So from just like a visual standpoint, if you've just listened to the audio, you hear some great conversations and great engagement. But I think that's an important point to notice, is that Mr. G intentionally ignored all of those things. And none of that mattered to the learning, I would argue it contributed to the learning. But it was neither disruptive to their peers. So there's a culture where like, that kind of motion is just completely fine. And like everybody did what they needed to do. So I think when we think of like a controlled setting, or like Mr. G definitely had a lot of intentionality here. But it looks non traditional in maybe what you're thinking of everyone sitting in desks, quietly writing on their papers, and turning things in. And I just think that that's a important kudos to the classroom culture. And then also like, recognizing that these are very busy third graders who like needed to move their bodies around. And that that was okay.

Julie Cunningham:

It's funny that you said that, because the first- one of the- so Ashley provided me with four videos to watch, and the video three and four when I'm referencing, which doesn't matter, but were really small group work. And one and two, were more of an overview of what goes on in the classroom. And as a secondary teacher, Elementary is not always my comfort zone. And so I made a comment to one of our colleagues, after watching one of the first two videos like do- these are third graders, right? Yeah, do third graders ever walk from one spot to the other? And like they have, they have no intention, but they're skipping, and they're jumping. And, again, not, no rowdy behavior man

Ashley O'Neil:

And like touching every desk along the way.

Julie Cunningham:

.And like, for me, that's like, a little uncomfortable as a secondary teacher. But yet, it was fine. Right? It was fine. And so I did not that did not distract me in the way it did in the whole classroom. You know, when we were listening to the sort of the directions and things like that, and people were moving around wiggling around- did not distract me at all in the small group work. So I have to say that I did notice it. But my comment about was when the third graders got in the small group work was look at how earnest they are and how genuine their questions are and how active duty and they're engaged in their learning. So although Ashley's right about the classroom culture, and that, you know, the availability to like sort of sit how you want and kind of lean how you want and kind of write how you want those things weren't corrected. They sort of went by the wayside for me, when we started looking at the the instruction.

Ashley O'Neil:

And I think that's the magic of it is like, so this was November of a third grade year, both teachers had shared with me that this is a particularly active group, they do a lot of movement to help with all of that extra activity and energy that the students have. But yeah, I think it's, I think it's a huge credit to the students and the teachers that it didn't, you get so caught up and invested in their work and they were so caught up invested in their work that none of that like motion, or, you know, an administrator peeking in the classroom and seeing all this busyness like none of that mattered because so much great learning was happening at that time. I want to pause here and provide a little context and maybe some personal perspective. So we know teaching is not uniform. The experiences of educators vary from building to building, city to city, and state to state. So some of you might be listening and thinking, "Yeah, welcome to elementary." But let's be honest for a second and also say that we know teachers have a tense relationship with the perception of their classroom. The responsibility we feel for our classroom to look and sound a certain way. When your class is labeled the rowdy classs- I've been there. And colleagues close their door and give your students a look when they come in from recess- I've been there. When your eval has a comment about the number of students out of their seat during your lesson- I've been there. I'm not saying the pendulum needs to swing to move toward chaos. But I'm sharing this to honor the pressure I felt as a teacher. And I know some listeners have felt at some point in their career. Because from a child standpoint, we know that movement and busyness is developmentally appropriate. But in a shared community, the fishbowl that is the classroom. There, there's a desire to temper that development with The pressure to have this calm and controlled classroom that looks and feels a certain way. So when Julie and I talk about this, it's helpful for all of us to remind ourselves that learning and engagement and active learning can happen, and how that looks and sounds can challenge perceptions that we've held for a very long time. So at this point in the conversation is Julie to dig into what she noticed around this Core Teaching Practice that she chose.

Julie Cunningham:

So then the core teaching practice that I thought stood out the most in the small group work, which also is a skill unto itself. That is, that it is something that I think people can practice. And certainly, I'm sure they can practice and get better at. But it is, when someone does it. Well. It's like watching a play that you're totally engaged in, or a show that you're totally engaged in or listening to your favorite music that you're totally engaged in. And so, I'm sure that when Mr. G sees himself teach, like he reflects back on things he could have done differently. But for an outsider looking in, I saw a lot of great eliciting and interpreting individual students thinking. So that's the core teaching practice I chose to focus on. And just to provide some context, the core teaching practice reads like this, teachers pose questions or tasks that provide or allow students to share their thinking about specific academic content in order to evaluate student understanding guide instructional decisions and surface ideas that will benefit other students. And so that's sort of the first part of the definition. And I think, in my mind, there's two things going on there. There's the intentional questioning and tasks to get students to authentically share their thinking,

Mr. G:

(fades) Do you see where we come up with that? (Fades)

Julie Cunningham:

Also, there's then that follow up piece where it guides the instruction, the further instruction that the instructor gives instructional decisions and learning for other students right?

Mr. G:

So what were you thinking Gavin, talk to me. (Fades)

Julie Cunningham:

So then, there's a second part that says in this definition of this core teaching practice to do this, effectively, a teacher draws out his students thinking through carefully chosen questions and tasks, and considers and checks alternative interpretations of the students ideas and methods. So that's sort of the "how" I feel like for the "what"? And so the ways in which I should pause for a moment, is there anything you want to add to that?

Ashley O'Neil:

I don't think this can be done well, without a depth of understanding of the content that you're teaching. And I say that because in third grade, we see a multiplication table, and I was raised, you were probably raised, that that is a table that you memorize, and those are implied facts that you then apply to "real math"or"bigger problems" later in your career. And I know a lot of times we think about multiplication tables and say, well, they just memorize it be great. And in both of these teacher's practices, you can see they understand every sub skill, foundational piece, number sense understanding that these teachers, the students have to have to really understand what it means to multiply. And with the end goal of still, let's multiplets memorize or multiplication facts. But I think that, this this lesson, this content could not be taught well, unless Mr. G had done the hard work of understanding that multiplication tables are more than memorizing multiplication tables. So I think that's just an important part that maybe when we think about elementary content, sometimes we think, oh, yeah, that's easy for me. I can still say my multiplication facts, that would be easy to teach. But there's a lot that when into that.

Julie Cunningham:

Yeah a lot of nuance, and he's able to pivot really easily if a student asks a related but unrelated question, and and he's able to use that students question to follow up. And now I wouldn't want anyone listening to this video to get the impression that if you were working towards any one of these skills, that is not valid, right, that that you somehow have to know your content perfectly. And you have to be this sort of well versed. Like, I don't know, like actor on the stage, right? You like everything has to go smoothly, and well, or this isn't going to work for your students. I think there would be nothing wrong with Mr. G. Having said, well, let's check that together. I'm not sure. Right. But he would have to have some response to the student's question to just say, I don't know and move on and not give that students question. Some credit, some credence right would be problematic

Ashley O'Neil:

or even just say no, actually, it's this way instead. Right. I think, I think the fact that he is able to see where they're coming from, shows that he doesn't take his own content for granted either right. Okay, I'm gonna jump back in and give a little context. Before I share our example clip. The clip you're about to listen to is an example we were just talking about. But it is also one of my favorite moments of third greatness that's available on the footage we captured of these classrooms. So to set the scene, Mr. G is walking them through a quick review of how to build a race on the table, the logistics of it, it's their first day of stations. So while he's looked at their pre tests, and knows that this was taught in second grade, he's giving them this quick review, because he also knows they haven't practiced this skill a ton this year. And he's aware that this group has been making common errors when building their arrays on their own.

Mr. G:

So Mr. Chu has us now(student interruppts). Absolute Exactly.

Ashley O'Neil:

The clip is hard to hear, but the student is telling Mr. G, that he doesn't have to use circles to draw his array. He can use unicorns or dragons. Now to an outsider, this feels random. But without hesitation, Mr. G picks up on what he's trying to say.

Mr. G:

Of course, yeah. Can you just draw "x's" and you can do this. (fades)

Ashley O'Neil:

is drawing on a past lesson with a different teacher. When you set up an array, the circles are representing a number, there are drawn version of a counter, like the colored bears or the beans of the chips that we use in early elementary. And to reinforce that the circles are quantity, it's likely that that previous teacher made clear that the shape itself is arbitrary. Mr. G picks up on the fact that the student is restating rules he's heard from another teacher, and Mr. G's awareness of where his students are means that he's able to keep that student drawn into the lesson, reinforcing the students thinking and even bringing in another shape option, they could use an X. On camera, you can see the student will nod and lean further onto the table as this affirmation keeps him engaged in the lesson. It would have been easy to dismiss or to be thrown by this seemingly off topic comment. But Mr. G rolls right into the lesson. Let's get back to Julie.

Julie Cunningham:

Quite often he asks orally in the small group for responses, but then he doesn't stop usually at the"What's your response?"- show me show me where you did that? Or how you got that? Or how you know? So asking students in their own words in their own work, right, not in some sort of mathematical language to explain to provide evidence for their reasoning,

Mr. G:

oh, four. How far do you think I'm gonna go down?

Julie Cunningham:

And sometimes when we're instructing, I think that part gets left off. That's the that part takes more time.

Mr. G:

So this is one then?

Julie Cunningham:

it's maybe not as simple again, we have to stop and listen to our students. Like all things that are not necessarily the simplest things to do in a classroom, we have other things going on.

Ashley O'Neil:

I think also, especially when, when a student gets an answer, incorrect. Like if they got a multiplication question incorrect, then obviously, my next move would be to try to figure out what, what sent them down that path. But if we get the student gets the answer correct, then it's really easy to say "check", they got it perfect. And just assume that they have the same understanding that you did. And I think that's another piece is that it didn't, it didn't matter what their answer was, it didn't matter if it was right or wrong, regardless of what they said. He had them back it up or show more and took the next step, right.

Julie Cunningham:

And then that becomes the norm. Right? That just becomes the norm for students to do that. So he has, I think I've mentioned this already in the podcast, but drawing on the table in front of him so he can see what they're doing. And again, I just think that's how much fun to draw on the table. I think that'd be a great fun. I think like once a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet, give me a dry, dry erase marker on the table. So anyway, but also then explain their drawing, right. And at one point, then he has students so so that was a separate point. But then he goes above and beyond that, and and there's not one right way. There's suggestions for how to do the array, right? Things that make it easier or simpler or more manageable. But not everybody's array on the table looks exactly the same. Just like when they're allowed to use strategies. Not everybody strategy might be exactly the same. So he says look around at your neighbors write and how do they look different from yours? Is there anything that you could be doing to your array or adding to your array that would be helpful

Mr. G:

My friend let's stop just for a second,You guys are working really hard. Look at your neighbors, look at your neighbors, look at what they're doing. And look at yours. See if there's anything you can add to your array (students counting) Could you guys solve the problem?

Julie Cunningham:

And so again, it's not about the right answer. It's not about everybody's looking like everybody else's. And it's not even it's not a competition, right? It's this. Hey, could you get some ideas from your neighbor? Is there something that they did? Well, that you appreciate. And-

Ashley O'Neil:

-and specifically visually, when some of the examples that I noticed were students who are taking off pieces of their array as they counted, so they didn't lose track. And I'm presuming that Mr. G noticed that some of the kids were getting kind of lost in that. And instead of stopping them and putting it back to self, he put it back to the students. And then also, when they got to the end of their rows or their columns, they were adding up their totals. So if they did lose track of their counting, they didn't have to go back to the very beginning. And they could go back to 21, or 30, whenever they had whenever they had last check first. And so just by looking at the students, and that him him suggesting that the students picked up on that from their peers, and then learn from their peers had a new strategy. And none of it came directly from Mr. G, which is I think, great,

Julie Cunningham:

Right. Absolutely.

Mr. G:

You guys want to stop real fast, I love what Byron's doing, I want you to see this. This is really cool. Byron, This is something that I didn't. I and I see that you're doing it . And I'm going to ask you... he's doing this, guys watch(fades)

Julie Cunningham:

So then my absolute favorite part of the video and audio is when Mr. G purposefully makes a mistake in his array, but the students don't notice. And so then he leads them through "Well, let me show you my work basically,"

Mr. G:

So Mr. G drew his array here, okay.

Julie Cunningham:

And then he starts to do what he is asked them to do,

Mr. G:

So I'm going to get started counting? Okay.

Julie Cunningham:

And he messes it all up, right? Because his array wasn't done correctly. Anyway,

Mr. G:

2, 4, 6, 8, 8, 12, 14, 19, 21, 23, 25 , 50, 52, 57...,

Julie Cunningham:

then he, the students start to automatically like want to fix it.

Mr. G:

62, 63, 64, 65, 66..(students start to say that he's counting wrong) Hang on, I'm going to start over (fades)

Julie Cunningham:

It's just killing them that, well, you you didn't do this, and you didn't do that. And you should have done this, you should have done that. And he hasn't stopped and say turn to your neighbor, right and talk about where did Mr. G make a mistake?

Mr. G:

What'd I do wrong? Turn and talk? What did I do wrong? Why? (Fades)

Julie Cunningham:

And then he starts again. And then he says, Well, wait, wait a minute, because he's making a mistake again. If-do I even in my array set up correctly? Let's look, did Mr. G even set this up right, let's look. 1, 2...(fades) let's go back. Let's take a step back. And then the students decide that No, he doesn't.

Mr. G:

Why am I not going to get the right answer. (Student: because you didn't write it right). Mr. G: what column was this? (fades)

Julie Cunningham:

So they have him redraw his array. And then they walk him through the steps

Student:

six times seven, so you don't have to stop carrying...(Fades)

Julie Cunningham:

He never really corrects his own mistake. They correct his mistake. And they're so... again, the word earnest comes up, there's so earnest and so engaged in helping him fix his mistake in and not again, in this competition way of, "well, I can do better than you" or "I'm right. And you're not" or whatever, right. But more like this collaborative sense.

Ashley O'Neil:

They're so invested in that problem, and like fixing it together and working through the process. Yeah.

Julie Cunningham:

And so that's another way for him to check. Okay, they could do their own problem. But can they go back and apply that to a problem that they didn't do that? I did, but I did it incorrectly.

Ashley O'Neil:

And some interesting background to that moment is that, so before these small groups happened, Mrs. Peach and Mr. G met together to look at the student's pretest and the mistakes that Mr. G did our mistakes that were evident like that, that happened repeatedly on those pretest. Right, so he's pulling those mistakes that students had made on the pretest that students within that group had made to say, Okay, here's a micro check of your growth. And here are some things that commonly happen and I've watched you commonly do right? And so I think that's another evidence of like some thoughtful planning on his part, and some thoughtful planning just on this whole process is that he used that data to inform his instruction. But it was in such a relationship-oriented, friendly, like, everybody was having a grand time doing it. But a lot of great like assessment and, and skill building that's happening,

Julie Cunningham:

Right. So without him ever saying, "I saw you made this mistake often", or"I went back to your pretest and picked out everything you did wrong", because how does that feel right? And here's why we're going to take a look at that. Instead, I don't want to say kind of tricked them into it, but-

Ashley O'Neil:

-But he flipped the script a lot. He allowed himself to be the one who was making mistakes, and let them be the experts of this new content to work through this together, which is much safer way to do it. It allows him to be the vulnerable one, and allows them to be the teacher and the leader.

Julie Cunningham:

Yeah. And so all that is why it was my favorite part.

Ashley O'Neil:

We're gonna wrap up this episode by listening to a couple of Julie's final thoughts on Mr. G's teaching, as observed in those videos. And with a few thoughts on grouping students.

Julie Cunningham:

I think my final just comment to our listeners is that we're talking about a lot of prep going and upfront, but I think that's what makes the time with the students in the classroom. So enjoyable. That's what allows Mr. G to have fun with them doing these math problems, right is that prep up front. So it's a different kind of prep instead of I don't know, instead of preparing your PowerPoint, and then expending a lot of energy being the one giving the information to the students and the day of the lesson, you're sort of it's a, again, a flip your key is expending that energy up front to prepare for the lesson. And then kind of sitting back not that he's not working, but kind of sitting back and letting that lesson progress and having some fun with the students. And for me, that's part of what's so enjoyable about this right? Like, I don't you want to be the you don't want to be the one working harder than your students in the classroom on that, at that given moment, if you can help it. So...

Ashley O'Neil:

Yeah, I think that's I think that's very true. And knowing that these teachers met both to talk about the results of their their students had. And I think another thing that's important to bring up is that, and this, there are different opinions and different, you know, philosophies around this. But for this particular time, these students were grouped by how they had performed on this pre assessment, meaning that this particular group of students scored within a similar grade band, but more or similar score. But more importantly than that, they were needing practice in similar areas, right. And so what was fascinating to me was that even their prep work and how they graded it, everybody got like that the quiz was worth 20 points. And so we've got 18 out of 20, or 15, out of 20, or 10, out of 20. They didn't just say, okay, all these kids got 10s. They're in this group, all these kids got 15. They're in this group based at these kids performed within this range, but took a deep dive look at all of their work and the thinking that they could glean from their paper assessments to say these students need more practice in this area and lump them together. And I think that's incredible. But what I think is more incredible is that you, not having known that, didn't know that they were grouped by ability level or grouped in that particular way.

Julie Cunningham:

Right. No, you're right. I didn't. I didn't. And I think I didn'. I mean, that's interesting for someone else wanting to or hoping to maybe practice something like this. But as a pure observer, like, that's sort of irrelevant to me if the goal is that they learn how to do an array and the students and to be able to use that Math strategy. And the students do that, right?

Ashley O'Neil:

Yes, and I but I think it matters in terms of like, the students didn't realize that they were grouped by ability level. And even within that ability level, you saw a ton of differentiation. So there was not this cookie cutter lesson of well, all these kids scored in this particular way. I can presume they all know these things and don't know these things. It still was an incredibly fluid and dynamic lesson that took into account that there were five different learners at that table with five different starting points or sets of skills that we're working on.

Julie Cunningham:

It's great point. Yeah.

Ashley O'Neil:

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