Assessment: Making Grades and Feedback Meaningful

We wrap up our assessment series by talking with Nicole Hagle. Nicole shares her strategies for looking at proficiencies instead of points. We talk about what happens when students do not understand the grading system and what we can do to help. 
Other Episodes on Assessment:
Healthy Grading Practices: Perspectives from a Secondary Teacher
Assessment in Elementary
Assessing Multiple Grades and Skills

Transcript


Intro Music:
David Biedenbender

Other Music: 
Pixabay 

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Transcript

Nicole: 0:00

When classroom teachers don't make grades meaningful when grades are telling parents and students what they know, then we run into these problems where they don't know that they need help.

Julie Cunningham: 0:11

Okay, now we're recording Welcome to teach

Ashley O'Neil: 0:18

on podcast hosted by Ashley O'Neil

Julie Cunningham: 0:28

and Julie Cunningham.

Ashley O'Neil: 0:35

We've been covering a topic here on Teach Wonder for the past few episodes. And honestly, I was avoiding it. If you've listened to this series, I may have mentioned this once or twice or three times. And one of the reasons that I did avoid it from a personal standpoint was because I was worried it would devolve into a conversation without a solution or a way out. It's a topic that has a lot of difficulties, and it's hard to sometimes see those opportunities inside of it. And it's also a topic that means a lot of things. Assessments encompasses formal and informal standardized date testing district required assessments, classroom check ins, school report cards, and each of those assessments have a different intent and set of rules. And teachers have varying degrees of control over all of them. But throughout this series, I've been proven so wrong, and I'm pretty delighted about it. Our guests have taken this topic and helped me see the opportunities and purposes with a little more clarity. And they've offered perspectives and ideas that have challenged but I think this week, our guests, Nicole brings another layer of perspective to the conversation. We focus on how and what scores communicate to students and to families. And what we can do to use grades to paint a more accurate picture of a student's progress, to avoid miscommunication about how students doing at school. We had some technical glitches with the audio this time, but we don't think it impacts the listening experience. If you find yourself looking for it, you can see a full transcript of this podcast episode in the link in our show notes. Here's Nicole. Okay, so for the benefit of our listeners, will you just tell us a little bit about your teaching background, and then what you're doing now? Yeah,

Nicole: 2:12

So I've been teaching for 17 years, I started out as a special educator, and then moved to middle school about halfway through. But at the middle school for almost 10 years. I switched to Gen Ed, the year after I came to the middle school. So I've been in Gen Ed since then. And for probably six years, I was teaching seventh grade English using standards based mastery system. And then I have for the last two years, been doing the support class. And so we have it's called called ELA foundations. And so I work with students, I'm also the MTSS data coach. And so I work with students between generally like the 38th and 60th percentile, to bump them up to proficiency on the MSTEP. Because there's a linking study that says whatever they are in NWEA, this is where they're projected to be on and and so as a building, we've decided to have this class that is like those buckets. So that's what I'm teaching now, which is not a grading class. And so it's been two years since I've implemented grading even we your standards based. I'm sorry, we do satisfactory unsatisfactory for the support class, which is more appropriate. Absolutely.

Ashley O'Neil: 3:23

Makes sense. So you, you say you don't do grading but you still live in the land of assessment, because your class is defined by NWEA and MSTEP, which are kind of the two big ones in Michigan anyway. Yeah,

Nicole: 3:37

yeah. And then I also then recently deal with parents and students who are here because they, and when I say their NWEA score, we actually look at their average over the last four times they've taken the test. So we don't ever like say, Oh, you had a bad test. But now you get all the support. So we look at like their average of the last four, so that no single test can really see the rest. And so it's frustrating when we have parents or students who are like, Why is my kid getting depressed, it got all A's and their English classes like Well, they've never been proficient on MSTEP or any, like no state testing, no NWEA, they've never hit the benchmark, they've never been proficient. So that's why we're giving them support because these reliable and valid assessments are telling us they need support. And then, so it is really frustrating that and this is coming from someone who's been a classroom teacher. So I feel like it's fair to say, when classroom teachers don't make grades meaningful when grades aren't telling parents and students what they know. Then we run into these problems where they don't know that they need help.

Ashley O'Neil: 4:42

And that shocker comes and you're in middle school. And if they didn't have you, that shocker could come much later in high school when it comes to the stakes are even higher, right? Oh,

Nicole: 4:51

Oh yeah. Yeah. And we've had when I was on the grade level team, we've had parents and students who would show them you know, yes, you're student is getting a D right now, you know, based on the the numbers of the standard space and everything that we're doing. And they're like, Oh, they've always gotten A's and then we pull out like their history or their NWA history and show them. But they've never been proficient. And then the parents sometimes are like, Are the students like, oh, my gosh, how did I not like why didn't someone tell me this sooner? Why was I always you know, the student who's getting bringing in the Kleenex, and staying after school and doing all the things. They're getting A's all the time, but they were never proficient. And so some parents are thankful to know in middle school is closed until high school. But it is frustrating as a, as a teacher to have to explain that when parents get upset that I pulled them into my support class, and then have to explain that they're, even though they're getting an A in math or English, they actually support based on the data. Right,

Ashley O'Neil: 5:54

right, that makes sense. So you did a big transition, both from like, the special educator lens to the general educator to now you're in the support class. So how has that affected how you've thought about change, or your teaching over time? So like, What changes have you made to your teaching over time? Yeah, so

Nicole: 6:12

going from special ed to gen ed was huge. And thankfully, that was the that was the time when I was introduced, the team, I was coming on to the team that was moved towards standards based. So it's kind of like the completion of the paint, like the person who was willing to do it. So I really learned in my first year, I never actually kind of a cool thing to be able to say I've never given a point. But

Ashley O'Neil: 6:37

Nicole goes on to talk about her time and special education and the switch to general education, and how it was just a big switch overall. But one of the biggest changes was her mindset and how it shifted from points to proficiencies. Yeah, that makes sense. Can you talk a little bit or explain just a little bit for people who don't? maybe aren't familiar with standard based grading what that looked like? Yeah.

Nicole: 7:00

So the first and most important thing is that I would always share the standard with the students like, this is what I'm supposed to be teaching you. This is what it looks like to be proficient. And so then it kind of gives them purpose for learning, which we're always trying to give them. So them understanding what we're doing and why we're doing I'm literally sharing the standard, our first thing we always did was break down the standard, like what does this actually mean? Because obviously, it's in teacher mumbo jumbo. And so we break it down the student language, and then they know why they're learning what they're learning. And so it's literally in my gradebook with just the standard RL two standard RL. And so it was just the standard in the gradebook, no homework, no, nothing. The only thing that was ever in the gradebook was just the standard.

Ashley O'Neil: 7:45

So you can take this question wherever you want to go, but what are some ways that you're assessing your students? And what are some challenges to that system for you?

Nicole: 7:54

So and again, I'm thinking back to when I was doing the standards base. The hardest thing was time, I think because students aren't all ready to test when you're, you know, we all sit down test on Thursday, some students might need more time. And so time was the biggest thing. My tests were never very long, because they were very like targeted standards based. So I was able to have a number of like refixer, who did a lot of the common level of, they could level up their assessment. And that one would just replace the grapefruity. For some I listen to the podcast that you that is Eric, I think

Ashley O'Neil: 8:32

podcasts that Nicole was mentioning, here is the first in our assessment series. We spoke with high school teacher, Eric Foster, and I'll link that episode in the show notes to Nicole was saying a lot of his work resonated with her. And she thinks that they probably have similar professional development literature on their shelves. I heard the similarities in their conversation. So I wanted to ask her a point of clarity. Okay, that's good to know. But it wasn't. Okay. So one question I have that Eric and I discussed, and I'm not sure how clearly that came through on the podcast, just because we had to edit it for a time. But do your students have to perform anything? Like they take the test, they want to level up or take the retest? Is there something they have to do to get to that retest? So

Nicole: 9:12

that actually would be one of the differences that I actually wrote down right here on my notebook? That? Yes, they do. They absolutely have to, like earn it, if you will. But what I do is put together a menu of things that they can do to earn that level up. So some of them, I mean, they could be required to do all of the assignments that we have the formative things, you know, leading up to it, that will be one of the options. So usually, I would say pick two, and it was a menu of like eight things. And I would say pick two or three. So they might do all the things they might do the specific I excel that connected, they might create something entirely different that demonstrates mastery of the content to prove that they're ready to take the test to show that they've mastered the content. So we had a menu. I didn't want to be so narrow because just like Eric had said, the students who need more help are being asked to do more work. And so we kind of left it open. So they at least have choice in the work that they were doing. But they had to prove that they had done something so that they would learn and be ready to retake the test. Because taking them over and over and over just to see if you do better, that's ludicrous for everybody. Sure.

Ashley O'Neil: 10:20

And then did you grade like that menu of things? Right? Some of those required your eyes on them. Right. So then did you have to grade whatever their menu things were? Or did they come to you in a way that was like, Alright, I did my menu. Here's what I did you know what I mean? Yeah,

Nicole: 10:35

they've had to attach evidence is what we called it. So we talked about evidence. So I wanted evidence of the ISL, you know, that they took it to nine year old or whatever. If it was an assignment that they had to turn in, I wanted to evidence that they had done that. And if it wasn't assignment, I would definitely look it over to make sure that they were demonstrating that they understood it, if they were turning in something entirely different. I mean, one of the options was like, work with a sibling or a caregiver at home, and, you know, teach them how to do it, and then bring back evidence that you worked with somebody and taught somebody how to how to do whatever. And that's great evidence that you learned that you know, and so they would just bring in like a signed note from home or something like that, that was chosen less frequently, because it's more time intensive and involves other people. Usually, they would just make up the work that they were missing, and completely I excel, but by the time they do that, they really are learning and ready to retake it. Sure.

Ashley O'Neil: 11:25

Sure. That makes a lot of sense. Okay, so my last question for you is, what advice are you would you give a pre service teacher who is feeling overwhelmed by assessment, and learning what their students know. So

Nicole: 11:36

I would say, ditch points from beginning like this point to go proficiency, and don't write everything I think we get, we get everything we give to a student doesn't need to be graded, you know, whether it's assessment, yes, especially if you're looking for mastery. But you don't need to grade absolutely everything. And the other thing that made a big difference for me is grading on a system of mastery, I could look at, you know, paragraph, if word for it, you know, doing main ideas and supporting details, things like that in paragraph. When we're doing mastery, it's only like, it's like a four point scale is what my team came up with. And so it's very obvious if they have no idea what they're doing, they're progressing, or they're not, and they're not there yet, or they're proficient but not above, or like that top level would be proficient, so proficient, that you could teach somebody that we tell the kids how to explain the difference between proficiency and like, a 10, you know, and so I think, going by that, not feeling like any depict, you know, 50% 72% not having to agonize about all that, you really could just say, you know, what, you don't really know, or, you know, you're not there yet, you're six. And so I think grading in general becomes easier when you're just looking at mastery, and not tallying up points and counting points and agonizing over is this one wrong? Or is this one right? You know,

Ashley O'Neil: 12:58

did you feel like your feedback was able to be pretty targeted than to like, I'm thinking about a written response. If they're writing some sort of summary, and you're talking about main points. You weren't also looking at their vocab. Also, looking at this also, can we do that sometimes as teachers, right, where you're like, Oh, I wish he would be doing this thing. But your feedback, then was really targeted on the standards that they are working on at that time?

Nicole: 13:20

Yep. Yes, absolutely. But I could if I were targeting two different things, it actually kind of became a language with the kids. I could say, you know, you're an eight on this, but you're kind of just a six on this. And they get it like, we know that because we use the language over and over, they would understand what it meant to be a six on something. It meant that they weren't clueless, but they weren't proficient yet.

Ashley O'Neil: 13:38

And did you find that parents once they learn the language? We're on board?

Nicole: 13:44

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because we did correlations we correlated the eight to, you know, being just proficient or partially proficient on all those correlations. But it is crazy. For the kids who had visuals. And we use, we just use it as common language. And even, you know, asking kids like a kid would come to me Oh, one of the menu items that they would have is if they had a friend who was a 10. We call that a master. Because it's mastering it means you're a master. So they had a friend who they know was a master on that quiz or whatever, they could work with that friend, and then produce evidence that they did work with that friend if they could peer mentor, peer tutor, and that would be one of the things they can do to earn their level up. So understanding and being I mean, obviously, grades were capable of grades. But when they are willing to share with each other, hey, I'm an eighth, and I want to be attend What do you know? So they really own the numbers as feedback as opposed to just I mean, what is 73% really mean? You know what I mean? When you really think what does that even mean on a test? Hit so know what that means. But they know what I mean. When I say that they're they're almost proficient, you know, that they're progressing and just not proficient? Yeah, sure.

Ashley O'Neil: 14:52

That makes sense. And it almost feels like you're demystifying it a little bit for them and then the kids who are always good at Doing the calculator equations because they figured out the game are still going to be fine because the game's clear for everyone. But then the kids who didn't know how to do that didn't know the game of school don't have to do the game of school because you're killing them in along the way. Yeah, that's awesome. All right. Is there anything that you wanted to share that we didn't chat about?

Nicole: 15:21

No, I think that's it. I want to I want to put together a book list attractive to love my kids, but this there are a number of books that, that I know that the other guy is reading, that really just feed this and they're not huge, super cumbersome. You know, like, I want to do book studies. And I want to work with people to transition into this because it's, it's, it's mine, it's a game changer for a lot of students, and a lot of parents. And it's actually a game changer. As a teacher, I think it made my life easier not having to grade everything. And that you know, and really understanding, when I've got everybody ranked by mastery in my gradebook, then I want to make groups that I can like, say, okay, this person has had in the first of the five, and they get along, and they want to jack each other, and they should work together.

Ashley O'Neil: 16:10

So some of my takeaways from my conversation with Nicole, the points, the numbers, the rubrics, percentages, whatever you use. They're only as meaningful as how you communicate that to your students. So I have three lovely kids who live with me. And those three are quite far along in their educational career, like high school and college. And they never fail to surprise me with how intuitive they are about the grading games at school. They know precisely how much their paper is worth in merit. And how much of that grade is based in the points they get for turning their paper in early points they get for naming it the right file conventions, points for meeting with the professor during office hours, etc. And Nicole is talking about these kids and how points can devalue that work. But she's also talking about the kids who don't quite get the game who have A's all through elementary school and middle school. And then they suddenly hit a class or a test or a moment on what they know is stripped away from how pleasant they are in class. And what a disservice. It is for that kids to be caught off guard by the sudden rework of the grading system, they've gotten used to the one that is as much about their school skills as it is about what they know. And while school skills matter and have value, they don't directly correlate to a child's ability to balance equations or to read complex texts. And the intentions of putting points to habits may be rooted in good places. Maybe students are more motivated to turn in things on time It boosts their grades, perhaps they do practice the good habits of learning when we grade them on it. But mixing that all up in the final equation can lead to kids passing significant school milestones, without the actual skills to be successful in the next step of their lives. And that is a pretty big disservice. And on that topic of communication, another thing that struck me in this conversation was her reminder that at its most basic state assessment is about communicating what someone knows where they fall on the spectrum of knowing and not knowing to other people invested in those kids. So does that kid know where they are and where they can go next? Do parents know how their child is actually doing in that specific content area? And the one thing I appreciated about Nicole's discussion is both how honest she is and how kind she was about the topic. Because we can talk about a failing grade. While using strengths based language. We can be honest about where a child is and what the road ahead will look like. While treating that student with dignity and respect. Assessment is communication, it is not a judgment or a value of worth.