We're back and talking assessment with elementary teacher Bryant Greiner. We talk assessment strategies for math and reading and the skills we build in elementary. Bryant's warm and enthusiasm for learning about his students skills and personalities is a great reminder of how building relationships with students must be factored into every aspect of teaching and learning. Tune in to hear tips and ideas that would work for any grade level!
Intro Music:
David Biedenbender
Other Music:
Pixabey
Find us on social media:
Instagram: cmichcese
Facebook: cmich_cese
We're back and talking assessment with elementary teacher Bryant Greiner. We talk assessment strategies for math and reading and the skills we build in elementary. Bryant's warm and enthusiasm for learning about his students skills and personalities is a great reminder of how building relationships with students must be factored into every aspect of teaching and learning. Tune in to hear tips and ideas that would work for any grade level!
Intro Music:
David Biedenbender
Other Music:
Pixabey
Find us on social media:
Instagram: cmichcese
Facebook: cmich_cese
One of the biggest things that I have done is really tried to take a step back and listen to my students more
Unknown:welcome to Teach Wonder
Ashley O'Neil:A podcast hosted by Ashley O'Neill and Julie Cunningham. When I was a kid, I was really into friendship bracelet making the kind of where you take embroidery floss and knot it and braid it into little patterns. I had this box of floss and I would sort my colors and I would separate them and wrap them around the small rectangles of cardstock to fit into the little slots in the box I had. And on long car rides on the endless afternoons of summer, you could find me with a safety pin and a bundle of those colored strands making knots and checking the length of the work against my wrist. We've been having these assessment conversations and those bracelets keep coming to my mind. I think about those bundles of floss and how it felt starting the bracelet. It was really a series of untangling and reassembling and untangling and reuniting all this floss together to make bracelet I would want them together not in in a pattern that complimented the colors. But in the particular moment at the beginning. In order to do it. Well, I needed to separate those strands out from one another to see each part of the piece I was about to make, I'd have to split them up. In our interview with Eric foster the first in this assessment series, we talked about separating behaviors from proficiency about creating assessments that measure what a student knows in a way that isn't influenced by a student's ability to play the game of school, plucking that strand of proficiency gently away from the rest, looking at it closely and using it to see and to determine what a student knows. But what about the rest of the strands about playing the game of school about turning things in about the kind of day a student had about what they're like? How do they matter? And when do we look at how the rest of those strands impact each other how they impact assessment? How does assessment look in different grades in different content areas. We're honoring the complex and interwoven topic of assessment on teach wonder, by having more conversations about it. We're sharing an interview with Brian today. He's a third grade teacher. And you may remember him from our core teaching practice series. He was kind enough to let me record his teaching during small groups for that episode, and you can find the link in the show notes. But this is our first time interviewing Brian and it was a delight. In this interview, we'll think about the strands and Brian has some interesting perspectives on how and when separating those threads affects students. Here's an example that happened before the podcast interview officially even started rolling. So we hop on zoom on Julie hopped on zoom with Brian and he's wearing a Santa hat. I remember laughing when I thought show up in the recording. That was before I realized. Here's an example that occurred before the podcast interview officially even started rolling. So when Julie interviewed Brian on Zoom, he showed up wearing a Santa hat in November. Because it's Elementary, and it's a hot day at school. It made sense, right? When Julie asked Brian about the hat, though, the first thing he said was I really liked days like this. It helps me learn more about my students, the logos and the baseball hats or the bit of personality that comes out on the theme day like this. Brian sees it as an opportunity to learn throughout this interview, you'll hear how seriously he takes getting to know his students, and how that care for whose students are helping better understand how and what they're learning.
Mr. G:So I am Bryant Greiner, and I teach third grade at Hillcrest Elementary in Alma, Michigan for homopolar schools. Excellent. Thanks,
Unknown:Brian. And so actually Brian's classroom was I'll just say this here on our recording, it's been featured on our podcast previously, but I never we never had took the opportunity or had the opportunity to talk to Brian directly. So this isn't really kind of exciting. And so Brian, I want to ask you, What changes have you made to your teaching practices over time, and they're probably numerous, but if you have some who want to highlight?
Mr. G:Um, yeah, so I've been, you know, over the years, you know, you watch different things, you have professional development, and you take things and you add it to your classroom. One of the biggest things that I have done is really tried to take a step back and listen to my students more. I really liked the quote from Ted lasso, where it's be curious, not judgmental. So I really like to do that with my students where I step back and I more curious of like, Hey, what's going on, you know, and actually come from that caring for least so that I can build a good respectful relationship with students and help them, you know, do their best in class.
Unknown:Can you give an example maybe for the listeners have like something that stands out to you a way in which you've done that recently, or something that was a turning point for you where you said, Oh, I write, I need to look at this differently.
Mr. G:Yeah, I think, you know, there was a time where you would.
Ashley O'Neil:So here's an example of those threads in action. Brian shared a story with Julie and it's one that's likely familiar to many of us. So he was giving some whole group instructions to start an assessment, trying to gather everyone's attention, to tell them what they needed to know, to set them up for success, right. And in the corner, there's this cluster of students who are talking, obviously not listening to him. And Brian's typical Mo is one that I would employ. Often, he was going to call across the room and say, Hey, what's going on. And the purpose of that, hey, what's going on was to get the students remind them, they were off task and loop them back into the group, and continue on with his instruction. But this time, he went with a different route, he walked over the students and said the same thing, but in a different tone. Instead of saying, Hey, what's going on? With the intent of looping the students back into his plan? He walked over and said, Hey, I see that you're talking what's going on? genuinely curious to find out what was happening, he was actually looking for an answer. And it turns out, one of the students didn't have a pencil, and they were trying to ask a friend for help with supplies. The students intention was to be on task. And to do the work, they were trying to do the game of school, two scenarios, two scenarios, two different approaches. So one would have positioned the group to be unprepared on ready, if Brian had just looped those students back in, that child's still would not have had a pencil, and he would have painted that group of students as quote unquote, not listening. The other approach took a minute, and it cost Brian at the stage with the rest of the class, right. But he got a more accurate picture of what was going on with that student, everybody got the materials that they needed, and they were ready when they moved on to the group.
Mr. G:After that, it kind of snowballed for me to really reflect and be like, how many times you know, do I actually listen to the kids, you know, without coming from the, alright, you did this or whatever, you know, you have to go and say to them, Hey, what's going on, and actually get to the root, so you can help them be successful. And I've noticed, you know, my students have done a much better job, I think I've built a better relationship with them that they know that they can talk to me about anything, and we can, you know, get more done in a year. And in a day, and we can be successful.
Unknown:That was going to, I think you answered my follow up question I was gonna ask there's, there's probably fewer behavior problems, because they can talk to you, right? Or they can problem solve, or they can tell you about what's going on before you even have to ask now. Exactly.
Mr. G:And you know, I always do, I've changed to as a teacher, that I do an intro ticket every morning, to figure out how the kids are feeling, you know, are they ready to learn that day? And if you know, from the data I collect right there, I can go and talk to them, and touch base and be like, Hey, I noticed that you said you're tired today, what do you need from me? And I'm coming from that curious spot where it's like, do they need, you know, extra, you know, support today? Do they need extra reminders? And they can verbalize that to me? And I'm there to help them. And yeah, we're able to get more done. I mean, and they're able to communicate definitely and feel safe and feel like we have a safe spot in the classroom, which is huge, because then everybody can, you know, ask questions, and they themselves can be curious. And nobody's judgmental back. Right,
Unknown:right. Modeling, right? How to how to even interact with each other. Yeah, that's a great point. So Brian, what are some of the ways in which you assess your students?
Mr. G:So I assess my students in you know, the summative and formative assessments? We do some end of the day exit tickets, we do exit tickets after a lesson. So to see what they know, quick check on, do they God, do they not? Especially when it comes to math? I do. I teach in stations and I can do a problem right there. I can see how every student's doing, do they have it? Do they don't? As well as I give them a quick exit ticket right there and I watch how they're doing it to make sure that it is their thinking is getting down on paper, as far as I can see, what are they missing? Or what's the next step for a lot of the kids because that's always what you're thinking as a teacher is with these assessments, you're thinking, where are they coming to With what do they maybe are missing? And then what do they need after that? To get them farther along in the process of learning?
Unknown:Do you feel like the exit tickets? Like the students must know why they're doing them? Right? So do you think they feel involved in that assessment process? By doing the exit tickets? Yeah.
Mr. G:So that's actually a great question. Because one of the things I'm really working on this year and focusing on is, with my exit tickets, I want the kids to come up sometimes with a problem that they could share with the peers in the class, and then have it beyond our beyond our quiz. So the kids are then showing me that they understand the math by writing the problem, and they've given me the answer in the exit ticket that others then can use. So I'm trying to get them in that learning process. That's my big goal this year. So that, you know, it shows me they know it, and then they can show others they know it, and they get, you know, they take that ownership of, wow, you know, my question was on there. And I'm still working on that and integrate all that together. But I'm really looking forward to, as we start to get through our subtraction unit here, and then get into multiplication and division and fractions that will be rockin and rollin that my kids can do it. And yeah,
Unknown:that's kind of the I'm imagining that's validating for them. And they're probably automatically get one right on the quiz. Right? Hopefully they get their question. Right. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. What are some challenges? And I think you've you're you've kind of mentioned it when you say you're trying to get your students more involved, but what are some challenges to assessing your students
Mr. G:reading is such a hard one to ask assessments are very, it seems kind of black and white in a way. You know, it's either they have it or they don't. So I really, it's hard to talk about reading, because they're reading words per minute, you know, if they haven't if they don't, and then you dive into what do they need? Okay.
Ashley O'Neil:So Brian shares that a challenge to assessment is assessing reading, because those assessments are pretty black and white, that may not be your experience. We message back and forth after this podcast, and I wanted to share some of the assessments he's talking about and give some more context, because not all assessments are universal at schools. Third grade is a big year for learning to read and districts and a lot of times they have school wide assessments that they give students throughout the year to see how students are progressing. And one of the assessments that Brian was specifically talking about in this conversation is dibbles. Now for my non elementary ELA folks, the dibbles means dynamic indicators for basic early literacy skills. And what that really means is that this test is primarily used to assess fluency. Basically, you've set one on one with a child and for this sub test, specifically, an adult listens to a child read out loud with a timer, and then calculates how many words a child read correctly in a minute to calculate their reading rate. This assessment predicates that being a fluent reader is an important element of being a quote unquote, good reader. And being a fluent reader is attributed to a certain speed. In many districts, students even have a graph and they have a word permanent goal that they're working toward, and they're assessed multiple times throughout the year to try to figure out if they can get to that fluency goal. Now, there are obviously other assessments that Brian does ones that ask students to interpret attacks or to Write Right, but standardized reading assessments are a big part of school, especially in these early years with reading, and they do not allow teachers a clear window into the process. Like Brian's exit tickets do. There's a stark contrast between holding a stopwatch and counting a student's read words on a page to observing a child manipulate, manipulative on a whiteboard or puzzling at a problem that was specifically focused on a mini lesson they just had. It's a striking difference. Here's Brian.
Mr. G:So as for comprehension, dealing with reading, it is different. Sometimes we have to infer what students are thinking or asking ourselves as teachers, if the answer is plausible. So I think like for example, if I had like I had an exit ticket the other day, we're going over a vocabulary word that we learned in class it though word was a magma. So in my lesson, and what I taught them was that magma is melted rock, and you can find magma inside a volcano. So my exit ticket, I asked them, Where can you find magma? What am I think that might be the only right answer, but in the book when we read it, it said blower's cross is a hot layer of molten rock called magma. I had students answer blowers cross. So both of them SIRs are correct. And as of late, like my thought process, or looking at our reassessment, especially with a written response is, is the answer plausible? Like, so is the answer, right? Even if it's not the answer we are expecting. And I think it can be so late if you know, if we were to give students, we should be giving students credit for their inferring and drawing conclusions with information given to them. With reading, we have students write sentences, using vocabulary words in a sentence, we assess them based off of one does the sentence, you know, show a clear understanding, does it show a partial understanding? Or does it not show on our stand all so to me, if they write a great sentence, but forgot to use the word in a sentence, I do mark it as as understanding because they're showing that they know what the word means, but just forgot to use it. So then later, we have to grade them as an assessment. Have they use the word correctly, or did they not use it at all. So in that case, I would mark it as they didn't use the word at all. But their sentence still was cracked, because it made sense. And they show that they understood they just didn't use it. So here's an example. It was like, if I had a student, we had a word, ingredients, students had to use that word ingredients in a sentence correctly. And a student if they had written a sentence, saying, I used eggs, flour, sugar, and chocolate chips on Saturday and make my mom's world famous chocolate chip cookies will here they're listing out ingredients. So they know that that's, that's you know, and those are ingredients to make those cookies, they just forgot to use the word. So when it comes to reading, especially with comprehension, and responding to the text, or writing about the text, or writing about words, in general, it's all about inferring what your students are thinking. So there's not really, I don't know if there's a right or wrong answer to that. Math is a little bit more when it comes to those assessments. The hardest thing is getting them to write things down on paper. And especially at this young age, showing your work is so important for us to see where they are what they need. Do they have it, do they not? And especially you know, sometimes you'll see an answer. If it's multiple choice. They'll circle something and there's no work and you're like, how did they come to this answer? Even if it's right, you want to see their train of thought. So I like talking about math when it comes to these assessments. Because I'm a big believer in writing down showing your work, and then giving kids points for doing that. So I take the test, and I double every, every question is worth two points. One point for showing your work, especially with as we start the year with addition, I say you get one point for writing the problem down to show your work. I don't care if you're right or you're wrong, the worst grade you can get to 50% because then at least they're writing it down and I can see their thoughts and I can see how they're gaining. And then I give them a point. They're right.
Ashley O'Neil:Here those threads again. So Brian has a much younger has a much younger group than Eric, our first podcast interview on assessment. His students were high schoolers. So with Brian, he's doing two things. He's teaching students the process of solving a problem. And he's teaching that this process includes the habit of writing down the problem of showing work, and that making grading transparent by separating those two strands the work from the answer, the students can quickly see how they're graded on the process versus a product. Additionally, this gives Brian some insight into students thinking he can catch small mistakes, students writing down the problem wrong, but actually doing the calculation correctly, or what aspect of the process is sticky for a student.
Mr. G:So and if they sometimes they'll write it down, and then as they transfer it over to the answer spot, they write it down incorrectly. But I can see their work, it's labeled. I give them the point I say you did it, and that's why we want to show our work. So you can get those points there. So I'm a big believer in that when it comes to addition and I tell them like if you show your work you get a point. Here we get every question hung you still get a 50% you get to write your this on a report card and yeah, and then they get the buy in I get the buy in the kids believe in it, showing their work so important. They can get that 100% And I you know, do I mean our my tests are always in the high 80s You know 90% range because The kids are showing their work. And then when we move into subtraction, they just got set the problem up right, with the bigger number on top smaller number on the bottom for showing work, that's a point. And then point forgetting it right. And it then leads into your multiplication with drawing pictures and stuff. I always tell the kids math is messy, because you go into some rooms. And you know, I always think of old college lecture halls with all the chalkboards and you see the chalk everywhere they lift up another, you know, another chalk for chalkboard for all the problems that you see. And I tell them that that's math, math is you can use every part of it, because you're showing your work, and I'll give them as much paper as they need. But save them up to feel that gratification, that they automatically get a point for signing it up. Is really huge for these kids at this age, because it reinforces how important is to show your work.
Unknown:I think that translates into other areas as well, right? Like, I mean,
Julie Cunningham:maybe not in? How many words can you read per minute, but when you get into reading books, and you're looking for well, how do you know that's the main character? How do you know that's a plot? Like oftentimes we look for reasons and things or evidence, right, in science or so I would think that I mean, although they're doing it for you in math, that must translate into other areas as well.
Mr. G:It does. And, you know, we talked about as what do good readers do. And we're always talking about good readers read with their finger, you know, as you read through, you don't lose your place, you know, good reader sound outwards, you know, you you blend it in those words as you bring it down by letter sounds. And it's, you know, sometimes they need reminders of worrying with our finger, you know, I always tell him the answers in the book, you know, you just have to look back and find it and teaching them that that's what good readers do. When they don't know something, you go back you look, you find that because it's always gonna be there, you know, in anything that we do.
Unknown:And again, you're showing your thinking, right, like, you're it's not the same as math showing your thinking, but you're finding reasons for the answer. Yeah. Brian, what advice would you give a pre service teacher? Potentially, sometimes it's overwhelming to be a pre service teacher, right? And they're trying to figure out assessment, and learning what their students know. So would you have any advice for that audience?
Mr. G:I always tried to put myself in my students shoes. I always think about when I was a kid. And when it came for assessments, you know, what would I find as equitable? You know, what was fair to me? If what I'm doing for grading all my assessments? If I if I was a kid doing that, and I wouldn't find that fair, right? Then can we do that to our own students? I always try to go back to the exes like, you know, we, we might have an experience where we had you know, something where it was each question was worth five points, you got it right, or you got it wrong, you know, and you have that feeling of it. And, you know, would you want your students to have that same feeling?
Ashley O'Neil:Right advice to think about a situation from the students perspective isn't always as easy as it sounds. He gives the example of a teacher who made questions worth five points on a quiz. And from that teacher's point of view, they made that quiz and nice and pretty 100 points to fit into the gradebook. And maybe that pretty 100 points to translate it really well to a nice percentage and a student's overall grade. But from a student perspective, choosing a single answer A, B, or C, that's a single action. And making it worth five points means that that single action marks you off a seemingly large amount. There's a game to grading with numbers and percentages, we know that and Brian is encouraging us to think about how that game affects or makes the child feel no,
Mr. G:would you want your students to have that same feeling. So as you do these assessments, and as you grade them as you dive into them, you know, always try to remember what it was like for you as a kid, and also talk to other teachers, talk to your colleagues see what everybody else is doing. Talk to them see how, hey, maybe, you know, my students didn't get this, you know, was it you know, did I do something wrong? Was it something I got to reteach? How do you teach this? And always reflecting on that with those assessments, but reflecting in a way that benefits your kids, your students, and something that you would find fair if you were in their shoes?
Unknown:I love that you jump right into is it something that I did wrong? Right? If my students didn't get it instead of you know, what are they doing wrong? So right ask yourself first and being thoughtful about that. Yeah. Is there anything else Brian that you want to add that I didn't ask you about in terms of assessment or as you
Mr. G:do you know, your formative and summative you know, I No, sometimes there is a lot of anxiety from students as you hear the word test. And even if you review with the kids and you know they have it there is that testing anxiety. So I always like to try and keep it not fun. But uh, I try and make those tests days a day where kids can relax a little bit, you know, have that weight off their shoulders, I tell the kids, you know, on some test days, it's PJ day or, you know, comfy clothes day. I tell students, you know, we don't call a test we call the quest. So that way, it's one of those things. And even there's times I've been saying tests and my sensei, and you mean class, and I'm like, Yep, it's a quest. And, you know, something fun like that, where they then don't have that anxiety towards lots of tests, I have to do this, I have to, you know, it's one of those things where it's okay, it's gonna be great. And I always tell the kids, they can redo their tests, they can redo their quests, they can redo quizzes, all, all assessments, they can redo them. Because a lot of time, it's just a simple mistake. If they're showing their work, I can see it's simple mistake. Here. This is where we, we learn more from our mistakes than we do. Sometimes when we do it.
Unknown:You have a lot of students take you up on reduce. I, you
Mr. G:know, this is my first year doing it after listening to Eric foster the summer I was like, I need to do that. I need to definitely I can do that. In elementary level, I can have my students redo a quest, a test, and homework and work. And they have they have read on any work that we do in class, they have read on it every single kid for the most part. And then my quest I've had, you know, about 50%. So, I mean, we're always progress monitoring for reading. So we're given them the stuff again to do so we know they have it should be the same for math. Yeah,
Unknown:that's interesting. I hadn't thought about that about retakes at the third grade level, that's interesting that you're seeing them take advantage of that good. One
Mr. G:thing that I would tell new teachers also in the profession are, they're new to the profession is differentiation is important for your students. And for you to get an understanding of what they know, you know, something as simple as if your spelling test is based off of, if the students can spell each syllable type correctly, you know, you can make it so that you have it. So it's broken down by here's a syllable here as you as they have to spell the word. So then they can visually see the syllables. And that's going to help them with spelling. And also if a student has a hard time reading, you know, just reading the math questions out loud for everybody. But even for them can be so beneficial for them to succeed and be successful on math tests. Because even they come to some words, you know, sometimes it could be even names. It can be pretty hard for students to you know, they get hung up on that. And then they're kind of sitting there in a rut. And I think that goes back to being fair. You can always talk to other teachers about this and differentiation within your colleagues and stuff. And yeah, that does, it really helps. So differentiation is huge.
Ashley O'Neil:So Brian brought up an important topic. When does formative really turn into summative when does assessing where a student is switch from the Okay, I know where you are. So now I can help you next situation. To the final. This is where you've landed officially stopped the end, the finality of summative with its permanence and its implications. Brian speaks about his assessments both as a tool to learn and a skill to master and in third grade there is as much learning about how to take a test as there is in sharing what you know. So he uses them a bit fluidly as a tool to gauge where a student is and to take it as a chance to teach them. That theme is going to come up again. In our next episode, we'll share an interview with a fifth and sixth grade teacher who really walks through how she uses assessment as an opportunity to learn as well. The easiest way for you to make sure you don't miss this is to like or follow this show on your podcast app. As always, you can find the links to our show notes and we encourage you to stay engaged with us on Facebook and Instagram by searching and following the Center for Excellence in STEM education. Thank you for listening