We hope you enjoy our interview with June Teisan. She's a long-time educator and a life-long learner. We discuss the 3Ps of project, place, and problem based learning.
Links
NCWIT
InnovatED 313
Music:
Intro Music: David Biedenbender
Other Music: Oleksandr Savochka, Sergii Pavkin from Pixabay
Find us on social media:
Instagram: cmichcese
Facebook: cmich_cese
We hope you enjoy our interview with June Teisan. She's a long-time educator and a life-long learner. We discuss the 3Ps of project, place, and problem based learning.
Links
NCWIT
InnovatED 313
Music:
Intro Music: David Biedenbender
Other Music: Oleksandr Savochka, Sergii Pavkin from Pixabay
Find us on social media:
Instagram: cmichcese
Facebook: cmich_cese
Okay, now we're recording
Julie Cunningham:Welcome to Teach Wonder Podcast hosted by Ashley O'Neil and Julie Cunningham.
Ashley O'Neil:Our next guest June Tyson as a force. I first met John over a decade ago at a week long professional development in Detroit. I was a younger teacher and I was starting a project based program at the middle school I was teaching at June was a leader in the Detroit area and an integral part of this D33. Workshop. I took that PD with a good friend and colleague of mine, and it was really transformative for me. I remember June, she stuck with me to fast forward to 2019 and Julie was introducing me to a new professional partner that would be running some workshops for us. I see June on that Zoom call. And I cannot believe how tiny the world was. In the years since I've been fortunate enough to learn from June every summer in our place based project based learning institute. She's pushed me to be a better teacher, a colleague and professional. Her penchant for details and connection are coupled with her strong sense of what matters in education. In this episode, her passionate and intentionality will come shining through and I'm so excited to share her with all of you. We recorded this episode last spring, knowing how busy both our summers were set to be. In the month center interview, June's position at Belle Isle was eliminated due to budget cuts. She remains as the founder of InnovatED313 and is busy leaning a brand new project with the National Council of Women and Information Technology and see what here's my dear friend, June. June, do you want to just start by just introducing yourself. So you have an audio of your name for the podcast, how you'd like us to kind of refer to you and then tell us a bit about your teaching background. And then that can lead into where you are now.
Julie Cunningham:All right. Well, thanks for letting me join in on this. This is a lot of fun.
Dr. June Teisan:My name is Dr. June Teisan. AndI taught middle schoolers yay, for 27 years, in a small community on the northeast corner of Detroit, I taught science but I because I so love social studies, language arts, and I even love math. So people are like, Oh, I love math, work to integrate that in what I did. Because life is not about silos, life is all interconnected. And so any chance I could I would make sure that we were strengthening literacy, whether that was your mathematic literacy, or whether it was reading skills. Love the middle school age is kind of fun. When you go to a party say hey, what do you do? What do you do? I'm a teacher. What grade level do you teach? I teach middle school. And the looks that you get anywhere from looks of horror. Oh, are like, how do you do that? I love Middle School. I still love Middle School. It's just as a major transition, you know, and I think I know, I can identify my years as middle school were kind of turbulent, and up and down. And almost everybody you talked to has the story about some struggle during those, you know, 1112 13 year old years. So I think they're vital years. So yeah, that's me. So you're not teaching middle school now. Right? So what is your role? Now? I know you kind of you have you have many hats, and many like projects that you're a part of, you don't have to list every single one of them. But what are some of your passion projects that you're up to these days. When I decided to close the chapter on my Classroom days, I did it as part of the Albert Einstein Distinguished Educator fellowship. And that is an opportunity for any stem educator in the US to apply and if you're selected, you spend 11 months in Washington DC, either at a federal agency or on Capitol Hill. And so I immediately joined up with NOAA National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and spent my fellowship year there in DC with them in their office of education, doing what I really love to do, and that was supporting educators, it was coming up with curriculum that brought weather and water and fisheries to teachers so that they had connections to the real world at their fingertips. And it's a lot of presenting a lot of traveling, something I'd done for a long time already have like conferences and sessions and things. They kept me on for two additional years in a contract position. So that was a really neat bridge. It's really hard for teachers to step out of the classroom because there's no place like it, you know, I mean, that the energy, the connection, and so that really worked for me in that transition. And then I came back home, I finished up my doctorate, which is really hard to do in your classroom teacher, you know, it's hard to take courses. But we do it because we know that we're going to continue improving. When I got that done, I said, What do I do now. And so I've taken on a couple of part time positions that can ebb and flow into full time any given week or back and forth. One job that I have is with the National Center for Women and Information Technology, which was brought together in the early 2000s, to coalesce voices and energy behind addressingthe lack of representation of women in computer science fields and in information technology. So I'm the K 12, Alliance manager. And I can do that fully remote, which is great. And it's NC what is a K to grey group. And so I'm with the K to 12 facet of that. And then here closer to home, is my work with the Belle Isle Conservancy, specifically at the Belle Isle aquarium. So I worked with them. I was brought on with an NSF grant that was doing teacher professional learning with Detroit public schools, community district teachers. And when that grants kind of, you know it as they do, kind of the funds are spent, I was asked to stick around. And so I ran school programs for a while and continued to do teacher professional learning experiences. Because teachers are a part of their community. And teachers are multipliers. So I feel it's so important to be able to connect with our urban educators in particular, to help support them in learning about the resources that are available to them at Belle Isle, which is this beautiful 982 acre urban park.But also connect with the resources at the aquarium and how you can enliven instruction by utilizing that space and picking our brains, education staff, and letting us help you and partner with you so that if you have a need, you want some pond water and bring your pond water if you need somebody to support you and understanding a little bit more about freshwater ecosystems, give us a shout, you know, that kind of thing. So those are the two main jobs I hold right now two hats. I also decided a little bit ago to launch my own nonprofit, because there are some efforts that I would like to see. Begin and they again involve supporting educators. And so I've started InnovatEd313. Our area of code here is the 313. So that's just coming off the ground right now. There's a couple things I'm up to.
Julie Cunningham:You're always so humble, because I hear and then they asked me to stay longer. And then they asked me to do more andmake it sound like you have just a couple of hard time jobs now. But you really are a very great advocate for education and for teachers June. Our next question, I think you you've sort of addressed a little bit about why in your own classroom, project based learning was important to you in terms of bringing in the social studies and the literacy and math and science, right. But sometimes when we say PBL we mean play space. And sometimes we mean project based and sometimes we mean problem based right? So however you want to use those three letters, that acronym ppl, why would you say why was it important to you as an educator? And why do you value at so much as you work with teachers now?
Dr. June Teisan:That's a awesome question because it helps me look back. If I can kind of, you know, roll back the tape a little bit. When I became an educator, I loved biology. I mean, when I was a kid, I, I I never aspired to be an educator. I wanted to be in the medical field. Whether that was a veterinarian early on and you know, doctor when I was a little kid, I wasn't lining up the dolls you know, and playing school. Why would you do that you're free for the Summer Go do something else. So I made like, I remember making a sock into a little bag that I would carry dry dog food in case I ran into any, you know, stray dog these dry cat food case or any little cats or kittens around and sugar cubes. Because in suburban, Metro Detroit, I was sure I was gonna run into them horses, right, and I wanted to have sugar cubes for them. So here's this little geeky girl running around, you know. And I could see the importance of this work and I loved learning. But not always was the curriculum connected to what my passion were. So fast forward as an adult.I think it was vital to me in my teaching, once you get the feel for how to do the job, and which voices to listen to, in which voices is sort of tuned out, which we can get into maybe a little later, I was finding that this the strictures of the curriculum, and as No Child Left untested, was launched, it was taking the life in the heart out of teaching. And I knew if it was impacting me, in my feeling of creativity and ability to tailor the instruction for my kids, of course, was dry and draining to my students as well. If you're not good at math, you're not passing the test. Well, guess what we're going to take you out to art, or we're gonna give you another extra hour of math every day, you're not a great reader, we're not going to just let you choose the books you want to read, we're going to say, Let's do lockstep this, this this. So early on in my career, I took a turn in that I wanted to really make sure that my instruction was student centered. And that I was going to be the buffer mean, yes, I got pummeled if it would mean physically, but you know, I knew that there was going to be some ramifications and conversations about the fact that like I had a library in the back of my room, I would just get books, and I would have kids choose which books they wanted to read if they wanted to read them. I found that instead of doing things, textbook style, or curriculum, you know, driven completely be on this page. By this time, I thought it was vitally important that my kids have a voice, that my kids have some opportunities to make choices, to take on different roles and not scripted roles, but roles that emerged through our interactions with each other, and with the curriculum, and with the community. So before I knew there were PBL, and all these acronyms, I was finding grant monies to get my kids out on the lakes, I wanted them on at the shorelines, I just felt it was crucial for them. Here we are in the Great Lakes state. And so many of my kids because of lack of social capital, lack of funds. And that narrowing of the curriculum, they weren't getting outside, they weren't connecting to the natural world. So I was going to engineer those. And I would find ways to make sure I promoted that with the powers that be that this is yes, we're still going to be enacting curriculum that the kids are going to get to select what it is we do there, they're going to, we're going to provide a base of enriching activities, and then bring in community members that are going to help to situate the learning and expand it in ways that were grounded in their community, and in what they were interested in. And so that's sort of where it took off. There are so many people who care about education, even though there are voices that are loud, and and amplified about, with all their opinions about how teachers are supposed to be doing things differently, or better how whatever we all know the voices are out there. There are people who care. And there are people who want to be a part of building up the kids, helping them connect to what they're interested in letting their voices be heard. And so I have kind of one of my mantras that had become instill is teacher as connector. Teaching can be a very isolating profession, you know, and sometimes you need to close that door. So you can just take a breath and do your own thing. Absolutely. But opening your doors outside of the classroom, so that people who who maybe weren't walking a similar road as your students are walking can be faces that your kids can see and voices that your kids can hear. So, to me that's the place based the within your community within your ecosystem. And project based giving kids truly looking upon them as learners who who only need to be supported instead of directed. So that's that's where it all kind of began to coalesce and, and when I do things I don't usually do them partway. I kind of just full steam ahead. And so again, going back to those party, people ask what you're doing, you know, what do you do? I'm a teacher. Hey, do you know anybody and I would ask at any party at church at friends houses that you know, in the grocery store, I need to find somebody who's a let's say you No water quality researcher or I want to find, I want to find a more diverse group of students, sorry, mentors, so that my students can see, you know, black and brown faces who are succeeding in careers that they might, you know, aspire to. So, yeah, it's, I gave up a lot of hobbies so that I could continue to fund these things, right. writing grants became sort of a little gamification thing for me. And it paid off my kids. Were just digging in. I mean, when you have a group of students who, when they leave your seventh grade classroom, say, we want to keep doing what we're doing, is it okay, if we come in, like before school or after school? Oh, I don't know. I mean, yeah. And so that subset of kids each year would, because I taught in a seven through 12 building, they'd come back, and I mean, it'd be the custodian unlocking the door, I'm right behind the custodian, and the kids are there to, and you know, fire up the urn of hot water and make hot chocolate in the morning, or whatever you need to do, go get your breakfast and come on back to the classroom. And I mean, I had students who were, you know, winning national competitions about research, little old Harper Woods corner of Metro Detroit, these kids in following up with a lot of them, some of them, yeah, there may be some sort of a research field or something that maybe connects, you know, is stem adjacent, but a lot of them aren't. But it builds, it builds who they are, their confidence and their desire to have an impact in their understanding that they can have an impact. So that's why I really was a fan of and continue to be a fan of PBL, PBL, PBL, whatever projects, passion, place based learning, because it also asks you as an educator, to expand and grow the current project that we partner on the Center for Excellence in STEM education at Central Michigan University, and Belle Isle aquarium, the PBL institute that we do in the summer, and then we continue on with a fellowship to support teachers through the school year, with just a monthly webinar. And, and, and sometimes site visits, if the teachers are open to it as they enact their PBL units. You just see how it. Yeah, you see, the teachers eyes begin to like, glisten a little bit more, because they're trying to let go of the control that you're taught, you have to have the curriculum ready, you have to cover a subject like it's a cake, you got to cover the cake. But you know, teachers are the ones that are directing learning, taking that role, stepping back and helping students be more in charge. And that's tough, it's tough for teachers to do. And so to be in a group of educators who are dipping their toe in that water, think it's a lot of fun for everybody stretching, and I'm gonna guess that you never had to worry about the standards being met through all of that in your classroom. You know, standards were certainly met. Did the test scores reflect that? Not necessarily, because my students learned early on that the scores didn't reflect on them so much as it reflected on the teachers. And so it's a system that it's a skewed situation. So yes, the kids I know, the kids learned the material. They connected to the curriculum in ways that were real and vibrant. But the the gauge that goes in the paper, and that people want to, you know, that testing monster, we continue to feed it, and it's not serving anyone Well, except for those whose pockets get lined by that test. Although we did have an experience, this was pretty cool. I had done a rocket math, this was pretty neat. I had gotten funding from DTE Energy. And it was a three year grant for $22,000. And I partnered with my math colleague on doing project based learning and he said, I'll do whatever you need me to do. Just don't make me build things with kids. I'm like, just fine. I can do the building part. But kids did straw rockets the first semester. And before they could redesign and launch their straw rockets over and over again. They had to crunch the numbers. So the data was theirs and it became real. The next semester it was bottle rockets. Same kind of thing. The next semester. What did we do after that one? The last one was rock A treat with literally literally the solid engine fuel model rockets. And test scores did go up. The math test scores did go up. But that wasn't my goal. My goal was I wanted kids to be able to feel comfortable using math and seeing it applied in real life situations that they cared about. Not giving them a, you know, death by ditto or worksheet mania. They cared about it because it was their data, and they're competing against their friends to have the highest launch or the longest launch or whatever it was. So yeah, that's great example. Because just to be honest with you, I, I had a very toxic experience, those last few years in my classroom because of a administrative fleet of administrators who the the numbers were what mattered. And being hauled in to an office and door closed and being yelled at because the test scores weren't what they were supposed to be. It wasn't about our the kids learning, it was about getting the right numbers. And that's unfortunately, what it devolves down into. And so that's why when the door opened really wide, I did not want to leave, but But it came to a point where I believed that I had done the work that I could get done in a positive way. And again, for just, it was it was time to explore other opportunities at that point.
Julie Cunningham:Makes sense?
Ashley O'Neil:I think, I think every teacher listening probably has a maybe similar or personal relationship with the beast that is test scores. I don't think a PD or workshop or a conversation that we have about teaching students goes by without someone saying, pull it about assessment, or what about this. And I know that actually, as we're recording, this is a big testing week for schools right now. And I know how my own kids are going into this week. And I know how a lot of the teachers that we work with are kind of feeling about this week. So I think that that's, that's true. One of the things I like that you brought up with PPO is this idea of student voice and choice and this idea, I think of possibility.Whereas the curriculum is kind of pulling everybody right to this answer. PBL does a lot to flip the script in that. So could you talk just briefly a little bit more about what voice and choice can look like? Because in the classroom, voice and choice can become kind of these contrived opportunities, right? Like, we come up with our classroom norms, but everybody's just saying the classroom norm, they think the teacher wants them to say, because they've done classroom norms for the first three hours of the day, and they have a good idea. So what does genuine student voice and choice look like in a PBL? situation?
Dr. June Teisan:First and foremost, I don't think that there is one set answer. So that being said, because each classroom is different, each group of students is different. But to have a mindset of being open to the possibilities, the teacher has the vision of I want to get from here to the end of this particular unit, or I have certain goals and objectives that I want to meet. It's allowing the path to that to be more circuitous than one straight line. So an example from our fellowship, which I thought was really unique and powerful. We have a teacher who is a stem instructor. And when he was at our Institute, in the summer, when we just asked people to come up with their, you know, just a draft idea not to be married to it, it's never going to be something that has to be ena cted step by step by step. He thought, well, I could do a school store, I could do a school store as part of the stem, it's got mathematics got, you know, interactions, and but then he had two very different groups of kids. One group was like, let's do this. And then the other group was No, no, you know, and so he was like, What do I do? I've got one school store, you know, what? And so what was great was, this was something that when he launched it, he thought of your, you know, fun, engaging instructional experience, and then immediately sort of devolved. And he was like, ah, and this is that's the moment where we, you know, we call a teachable moment when kids are at that point, right when they're in that little iffy stage. So we kind of chatted about it, and the focus has had been kids, what is it that you want to sell? What is it that you want to, you know, purchase so that we can sell. And so that would become very, you know, like, again, here we are point A, where we're going to get to point Z, what are we going to sell? So how do we decide that? What we ended up talking about this teacher? And I was? Well, you know, most of the kids were saying, well, let's buy these things off of, you know, a particular oriented training company catalog or whatever. And I said, Can we just pause for a second and think about? What are most of those things made of plastic? What have we been having conversations about? What do we see in the news, plastic pollution, one time use. So let's say that your school's mascot is a doc. So you get, you know, 500 duckies, right? The kids might buy them for their little cousins, or they might get six of them to line up on their locker. And then what happens to him in a month or six months, they're in the trash. So maybe that's you can pose to them. Let's look into what happens to plastics. And then ask them what they could sell instead. And think about your community. And so he and I were talking about the community? Could the kids make their own items to sell? What supplies would they need? Could they do it from Oh, my gosh, plastics that they find? Are there artisans in your community that could you know, that do this type of work, or could come in and speak to them? And so from there, it began to blossom. And that's what ultimately happened, he started talking to the kids about plastic pollution, and how can we make these things more personal and, you know, be the artists and things. And they, I've been getting pictures from him from all of his things that students are making. And it's a wide array, because we're like, Let's do greeting cards, let's do for Mother's and Father's Day, and we'll come up with these catchy phrases. So he had kids who were like, wanting to be the wordsmith errs, and again, there was they wanted to be the artist. But then they also did like shrink art, they realized that the salads that their school has just great that schools have salads, we didn't have a lot of those. The containers are those, if you have the right kind of plastic, it can actually be colored, and it can shrink down. And oh, there we go. So many other opportunities. So these kids took on different roles as their interests, you know, directed them. And so that was open and fluid. And some kids want to be the bookkeepers. They're like, well, how many of these are going to have to sell? And what are we going to sell them? And are we going to have limited amounts. And so it gets a little entrepreneurs over here. So here it is, they're all part of one larger picture. But each kid is bringing their own passions forward. And some of them they're just like, I don't really care, you're like, Okay, what job can we find? You know, because not everybody's gonna be getting into this. So, to me, that is a more authentic learning experience. And you can weave in for everybody, you can take a pause and say, Hey, let's, let's stop for right now. Because, you know, two, Mika and Joe are doing our number crunching, let's look at their spreadsheet. And let's look at the note. Like if you're talking about math skills, pause and focus in on that, if you're talking about literacy, and so maybe you could find out the life of whoever created Hallmark or, you know, there's all kinds of things that you can do to pause so that, you know, you're landing on the next curricular milestone, and then kind of, you know, set the learning free again, and then pause. And so I think that that's a way to say voice and choice. But it's not just a free for all, is that no one any good?
Ashley O'Neil:It's all about, a lot about taking the feedback that the students gave, which wasn't positive right away, really that initial, like, not great feedback, and being willing to hear it, reflect on it, and then make some come back to the students with some more alternatives and ideas. That particular teacher could have kind of run for the hills and been like, Yep, we're gonna reinvent the whole proud project, or they could have dug their heels in and been like, Nope, this is what we're doing and applied more structure to it, right. Sometimes we do that with students, if we don't get their initial engagement, our default. Yeah, gut reaction is to apply. Yeah, it's to apply more structure. And instead, he was like, Okay, well, how could we reframe this. So this would be engaging for the students and still has the spirit of what they're doing. I saw actually a picture. They're making these shrinky dink kind of badges and magnets for their whackers. They turned out great. And it's probably a much more complicated, layered collaborative projects, and even the initial idea was, but again, it's that teacher being open to possibility. The other thing I like that you said, is this idea of like, catch and release. A lot of times we think we gotta give it all up front and Keep them contained. Because once we release them, there's rival bringing it back together. And I like what you said, were like, no, if we do need to, I'll take a minute and like, put up on the board everybody's data and gather everyone together as a group, that is still possible. And I think reminding teachers, when you do project based learning, or you release them into the wild, per se, to kind of explore these things, you still can pull them back, which is really, really valuable. Sorry, Julie, I'm talking a lot. So I'll let you take a turn.
Dr. June Teisan:No, and I just wanted to add one more thing that just came to me too. This is also voice and choice for the educator. I mean, too often, what is professional development, like it sit and get, it's being talked at and talked to, and told to crunch numbers. And you're going to do things this way. And, and you just asked to sit and comply. And this instead is a way that the teacher still is getting the job done, but they have the freedom to use their own voices and make their own choices. So I just had a little aha moment right there.
Julie Cunningham:Yeah, and to learn with their students, right, which is exciting, instead of always being the person up front with the knowledge
Dr. June Teisan:and admit mistakes. I mean, that's a powerful part of it as well. I mean, he had to say, hey, this feels like it's going off the rails here. So my bad, let me let's like restart quick take too. So and I think kids respect that because it's authentic, you know? And besides that, I mean, what are they gonna say about your boy, you really screwed up? Well, you know what, it's 12 year old telling you, you screwed up. It's truth. But I can, I'll sleep tonight.
Julie Cunningham:When you think back over, over your career, and the way that you're teaching us changed, I started having to do this myself, because I have to present for a pre service group on on Saturday, you know, when you think about what advice you would give to new teachers to pre service teachers, or new classroom teachers? Or, I mean, how do you first of all, how do you pare it down for them? If you could just put my presentation together? For me? That'd be great. I'm just kidding. I gotcha. Like I totally kidding. But, but like, first of all, how did you pare it down? Right to the the things that you they really need to know. And then what what floats to the top for you? What do you what's most important?
Dr. June Teisan:I think the first aha for me, like when I, the first thing is, it's going to be messy those first couple of years, right? I mean, you are learning as you're going. That's true of a lot of careers. It's not just teaching. So I would say first of all, find your people, find your people. And that isn't necessarily just the people in your building, if you are I totally 100% am committed to being a lifelong learner. And not like in the old like, write it in a special font. I'm a lifelong learner, but truly continuing to put yourself in the role of a student, because then you don't lose touch with what it feels like for that level of discomfort. And that bit of uncertainty, and the little bit of anger you get when somebody's saying that they're telling you how to do something, but you're not really getting it. And so in that whole staying in flux, being in touch with what it's like to be on the other side of the teacher desk, sitting back in that role, I think is crucial. And so, I mean, I went to every professional developer, I remember a couple of administrators, you try to get a building lot. No, I'm not trying to get out of building, I'm trying to continue to learn so that I do things better. And you know, in, so let me go. But finding your people might mean, outside of the building, it might mean you know, there are so many online opportunities now, where you can sign on to free experiences. And you can hear a voice and you can connect that person on chat. And then you can get their email and you can have a new BFF who lives in Boise or Jamaica, maybe they live in Jamaica, you can go visit him sometime. That's double, double fun. I think another bit of advice I would always give and I am not a big advice giver, I'm more of a let's sit down and chat and figure this out together kind of thing. But remember, you're not teaching a subject, and you're not teaching a grade level. You're teaching wonderful humans. And I think in the in this, when you're down into it, it's it's too easy to default to you know, well, I'm a science teacher, though. I am a teacher of middle schoolers, and I want them to learn more about science. And I'm not saying that in any way that is, you know, at all, you know, patronizing or it really does help you recalibrate if you say to yourself, these are humans who are living a life that's incredibly complex. Second graders are complex. High schoolers are complex. Every mind deserves a chance. Take a breath. Step outside if you need to walk outside of the roof for a second, but come back in and be all in for the kids. There's this, you know, long, long names that go around, you know, but the kids who are toughest, you know, to teach and to love are the ones that need it the most. And so I think that the ones that are pressing your buttons, you know, take a breath, remember, you're the adult, share your calm, you know, if you don't have calm, take a breath, come back tomorrow, a little more calm, you know, it's a leadership position. And it's, it's relentless at times. So that's why you find your people, you do the things that you need to do to come back in with that smile. And with that fresh face, because I think one of the most difficult things I ever encountered as an educator was my peers who would, who would act out against kids, and I'm like, wow, you know, you're here, this is, this is spending hours of their day here. Let's bring some joy. If you have to fake that joy right now, you fake it, you greet them at the door, and you put on that fancy smile, or whatever you need to do. But sometimes it will turn your day around to you know. So I just think that knowing that you're not teaching a subject, you're teaching humans, knowing that there's really power in supporting each other and being a support and being listeners. And placing yourself in the role of the learner. I think that that would be the trifecta that I come up with right now. sort of off the cuff. A couple of thoughts I wrote down
Ashley O'Neil:finding peers who build you up in this profession and support you. And what is no doubt a tough and giving profession. I couldn't agree with Jr. I'm grateful to have connected with her. She's been one of those colleagues for me. And we hope that in some small way this podcast as a support to you. We encourage you to share this episode with someone who is part of your professional support system. We'll be back in your ears in two weeks to bring more voices into our discussion on assessment. You can find links in the show notes and a full transcript for this and all of our podcast episodes on bus bap. Thanks for listening