Teaching over Time: The Power of Teaching Partnerships, PBL, and Informal Data

 We are absolutely thrilled to have with us this week Laura Trombley and Becky Rousseau, two incredible teachers who have been trying some new things in their classroom. We'll be chatting about how partnerships and collaboration can nurture a more dynamic learning environment, the power of project-based learning, what kind of data can actually tell us how our students are learning, and so much more! So, who's ready for a great conversation?

Opening Music:
David Biedenbender 

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Transcript

Becky Rousseau: 0:00

I would agree with that. But I also think it comes from a place to when you have multiple years of teaching that you learn. You understand that you're you get new clientele every year that you get a different group of kids.

Introduction: 0:16

Okay, now we're recording. So welcome to Teach Wonder. Wonder podcast hosted by Ashley O'Neill and Julie Cunningham.

Julie Cunningham: 0:41

Teach wonder is a podcast that comes from the Center for Excellence in STEM education. It's an on demand public way for us to share conversations that are happening in our education community with you.

Ashley O'Neil: 0:53

But a lot of our work happens in our education community, in the spaces where we are virtually or face to face connecting with teachers for workshops, field trips, and ongoing professional development.

Julie Cunningham: 1:05

Our conversation today is with two teachers that actually met through face to face workshops. Becky and Laura joined us at Belle Isle for our project base place based teacher fellowship,

Ashley O'Neil: 1:17

I was immediately struck by their synchronicity. Even if I hadn't been in charge of registrations and knowing that they came from the same school, it would have been obvious immediately that they were teaching partners anyway. They had that kind of dramatic camaraderie that only comes from time spent in school together. Becky knew Laura's favorite drink and grabbed it from the cooler without asking while Laura made sure Becky had the paper she needed to add to her binder. They're very aware of each other's strengths in the classroom. And they jump in to clarify or provide thoughtful counter perspective, when they think the other is being too hard on themselves. It's no surprise then that their project became a collaboration between themselves and another outdoor educator who had attended this PD, I had the privilege of watching them lean into each other skill sets to push their practice a little as they tried an ambitious plan to bring students to Hartley Nature Center for an ongoing learning project.

Julie Cunningham: 2:07

Our conversation today today is about data about PBL about the challenges that face teachers. And it's also about collaboration. You'll hear the bond and the magic between these two teachers as our questions and conversation meanders through all the topics related to teaching.

Becky Rousseau: 2:26

Okay, perfect. All right, I will go first then I am Becky Rousseau. And I currently teach at havens Elementary in second Michigan, there are two elementaries. And what's five or six years ago, we stratified so we became a lower elementary and upper elementary. So my beginning of teaching was at shields for all probably 11 or 12 of my total of 19 years. So I'm in third grade. I started in kindergarten for one year, knowing that was going to be for one year, and then went into fifth grade classroom. And then after eight years of that I got moved to third grade. And I worked with Laura and my friend Katherine for I think three years I think we taught third grade together. Oh, seems like it seems longer than that. But I know it was at least a couple of years that we taught together. And then I have been at havens for the last, I think six, six years in third grade. So I've taught third grade almost as long as I've taught fifth grade.

Ashley O'Neil: 3:31

I know you know how many third grade classrooms in that building?

Laura Trombley: 3:37

There are five now. Okay, so I'm Laura Trombley. I also teach in Swan Valley. My current position is pre K five STEM teacher. I've worked in Swan Valley for most of my career, which I think is your 22 of teaching. Started also like Bucky at shields elementary wave of stratification. I taught second grade there for about five years, I think. Got a brilliant idea that I thought I wanted to move to sunny California. So my husband and I did that for about three years, which I taught there. It was actually a really good experience. But Michigan is home you know. So I taught at a constructivist charter school for three years in San Diego which actually started the the school from the ground up that that could be an entire another podcast. But after a few years, we kind of decided my husband had to decide we want to come back here and start a family and it'll be with our family. So returned didn't immediately go back to work as a teacher. Work For a software company for about a year, I love technology. As some of you know, that was not a good fit. I am not, I am a teacher that needs to be in a classroom with kids so that I realized that really quickly in that job, so was lucky enough to be hired back at shields. And kind of like Becky I was I went into a kindergarten position, I don't know what it is about kindergarten, which I knew would would, would be for a short amount of time. So at which point, I pretty much bounced around to every grade after that, kindergarten to second to third where Becky and I taught together for a while, which was epic, which is why we're I really say that's why we work so well together now, because we're very similar in styles. We're both like, Okay, let's go for it and try this. So we actually prior to that, we taught one year to get fifth grade as well. And then I ended up moving back to fifth grade it right before the stratification and then we were separated at that point. But so when I went into this stem position, then we're, we're back together and able to, to collaborate a lot more. So I've literally taught every grade from preschool to fifth grade. And now, pre K stem, pre K five form. So been long. It's been crazy, but I love change. So

Julie Cunningham: 6:37

I was just gonna ask if you could tell us a little bit about this, what the stem position looks like?

Laura Trombley: 6:41

Sure, absolutely. So I I've been in both buildings, both shields Elementary, and Haven's Elementary. So um, so the first half of the week, but we have five, we have five specialist teachers in our team. So two of us are out she havens at the beginning of the week, I am part of a group of three, we're at shields at the beginning of the week. So again, there, I see all the classes, young fives through second grade for two and a half days, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday afternoon, they're really what my focus is, is computer science. So I'm really that I asked because science is really my passion. And in my background, I asked if I could, if I could more fat in a way into into a STEM program. That was the standards I follow follow or the the state computer science standards. And they were open to that. So I tried to incorporate a lot of engineering design and, and things like that within those standards. Same thing at third grade through fifth at my other school, really focusing on the same thing. I do a lot with coding, and typing and those kinds of things. But I mean, the computer much like any grade level standards, there are a huge amount of standards. And some a lot of those because we're a district that's one to one with iPads, many of those standards, teachers are meeting in the classroom a lot. So I get to I really have the ability to focus in on a lot to do with coding and programming and robots and lots of interesting things like that.

Julie Cunningham: 8:33

That's super, that's really cool. And I asked because sometimes when it's a special, it's always interesting to hear how the instructor or the school figures out, right, you can easily from week to week keep kids projects, I mean, for a special when you see them once a week for a limited amount of time. So I'm always curious to see like, what what's the solution? And I imagine that you've had to work in those parameters a little bit to come up with

Laura Trombley: 9:00

basically, we have a blank room with all shelves, like that asked for them. Like you've got to find a way to store for other projects, which try to do it sort of in a grade level is storing things my roommate havens, I feel like doesn't have as much storage. They kind of have to do third grades doing this fourth grade is doing this at different times to make the storage work a little better.

Ashley O'Neil: 9:23

So would you talk a little bit about the opportunities that you have had to collaborate together?

Laura Trombley: 9:30

As we mentioned, yeah, we were talking about this earlier. We taught together for a long time. So we really always tried to do big collaborative projects with with our students each year. So we we were trying to brainstorm it's been a while, but we were trying to break through some of the big crazy things that we used to do. One thing where we really, I've really felt technology like I said, That is kind of my thing as well as science. So we would try to always find projects where we could give kids the opportunity to integrate technology, if that was their interest, or if that was their passion. And one thing I was thinking about that we that we did is, we did a big Charlotte's Web Project. And I can't even exactly remember the parameters of it. But the kids had to end with a final project. And that key is really good at giving kids choice in in their work daily, and both project base. So I think they had some sort of choice, big choice board where they could decide what they wanted to do as this final project. And what I the thing that I remember most I mean, we had, we had posters and those kinds of things. But I remember at the time, and kids still are, but they were really starting to be obsessed with Minecraft. And I had gone to some conference, probably McCall, McCall or something and had seen all these ways that that teachers were using Minecraft in the classroom. And I threw that out there to the kids. And so a handful of them, I think, took that into consideration and created these Charlotte's Web worlds, that they then I said they had to at least explain it to us. So the parents were videotaping, and they were narrating their Charlotte's Web worlds that they created in Minecraft, which Minecraft sort of lends itself well to the farm thing, because you know, they have pigs and chickens and all these kinds of things. So I just remember that being the most amazing thing. And I think those kids are seniors now. Because one of our teachers, I remember one of our colleagues, her son was one of the Minecraft kids. So I'm pretty sure they're seniors. So that was a long time ago. So I feel like that we were we were really trying to get kids involved in that and the opportunity to have choice. And include, I think, which is what exactly we're still doing with PBL. Now, I mean, I think kind of,

Becky Rousseau: 12:14

right. It's just officially has a name and we know what it is now. And we're intentional. We're intentionally. Yeah, it was just cool. The other thing was the one thing I remember with that project was we had when we worked together, we had a theme every year and that theme that year was the movies. So for Charlotte Webb, we had we staged like a movie premiere so the kids could dress up and walk the red carpet. And you know, and then we watched the movie as a third grade in the gym. So they were in their fancy clothing and it was really cute. We laid out red paper so they could walk the red carpet and we took pictures and stuff. It was really cute. Do you remember that? Yeah, they

Laura Trombley: 13:01

had we had a big we had some hair and makeup big like Charlotte's Web barn backdrops, so they got little, you know, like they do on the red carpet. That was so fun. But we I mean, we always try to do we always try to do a big, big stuff like that. Because I feel like when I was reflecting on this, I really feel like, that's what gets kids super engaged. And super excited and weird. Becky and I are good at getting over the top excited about nearly anything. So

Becky Rousseau: 13:32

we're collaborating like coming up with a little base idea. And then it just like explodes into something like the movie premiere, or Minecraft for Charlotte's Web, you know, it just kind of snowballs from a base idea. And then we're really good at bouncing off ideas and making it bigger.

Julie Cunningham: 13:51

Becky, can you talk a little bit about I think, sometimes for our listeners, and maybe this will come up? I know, there's a question later on about PBL specifically. But when we think about student choice, sometimes people get anxious about, Well, how am I going to assess it if everybody doesn't do the same sort of thing? Right? And so I think some of the other things people get anxious about maybe are what is that chaos in my room gonna look like if I'm attending to this person's X project? What's happening over here with this project? Why right, like so can you talk a little bit about how you manage some of those parameters when you're given student choice? Sure.

Becky Rousseau: 14:36

So I would have to say to start out with you probably didn't look like I had control of anything and I think sometimes when you walk into my classroom, it looks like kids are everywhere, because they literally are everywhere. So I think the first thing is you have to internally be okay with that. because if you're any kind of person that likes organization, that is not the way to go, because it's not it's organized, but it doesn't feel organized. It's like you asking me that question. I have like, internal angst over that question that you just asked me just because it is very crazy looking. But they just always have to have some part like writing is that way, for me, it's not a big project. But writing can be that way. Because you have kids that are in different spots all the time, you have kids that are beginning starting something new. We're doing a wax museum project right now, though, the kids have several parts that they have to complete. And I have kids that are still typing their biography, I have kids that are doing the parts for their board. And, you know, like giving them the choice to work, how they want to work is huge for my group this year, like some light to work on the floor. So I'm like to work the table. So I'm like to be by my desk, or under a table. And that just has, you just have to, I just have to be okay with that. So giving them that choice, setting the rules, like you know, we have to work at a level zero and understanding that we can't work with all this noise. And honestly, you really can't call her what you have to color or type what you have to type if you're talking. So just stressing those, those organization pieces has gotten easier for me, the longer I've taught, and it's okay, kids will do what they're supposed to do, they really will if you have that structure set in place. So for me, it was just, you know, telling myself, they can do it, and they're going to do it and it's going to be okay.

Laura Trombley: 16:45

I feel like I feel like I can add to a little bit about that. Because I know, I know, all Becky's strengths. And I guess I see that side of you know, it's hard to see your own strengths. Sometimes. She is really good at organizing that in the way that rubrics are a big thing. We did a lot with that in the past. So kids at least have a knowledge of you know, what the baseline is for, for what they have to do with each thing. Feel like that we used a lot of rubrics when we did all of those projects in the past. And I feel like you're really good at laying that out. I really

Ashley O'Neil: 17:24

like the comparison you made between the PBL and writers workshop. And I've never made that connection before. But he and I think that that's a really accessible comparison, because you're right, you have kids who are in different phases of revision, you have kids who are still working on the first draft because they went on vacation. And so you focus on this overarching process and knowing where kids are in that process, but they're not all at the same place. And really with PBL, it's similar, where there is some process to an end product, and it's your job as the teacher not to move them through it in synchrony, synchronization, that thread I'm looking for, but to help them be aware of where they are in the process and to move them to the next phase that was helpful. Thank you. Yeah, yeah,

Becky Rousseau: 18:12

you're welcome. And there are several like checkpoints to like, we I touched base, you know, and I'm always aware of where they are to, in the process, you know, it's sometimes it's just like the noise level, I know when they're done, or you like done working or done working on that for now, because, you know, we're just ready to move on. So just, you know, knowing and paying attention to their cues that they're giving me, and, you know, just touching base, and I have my clipboard with all their names, and I just kind of go through what they're on to so I know when I need to give them that five minute little check, or, you know, those kinds of things. So, it is it is I guess, well now they think about it is a little bit more organized than I think and it's just knowing them. And yeah, you know, practice

Julie Cunningham: 19:11

and presumably whatever chaos there is, it's worth the payout. And then yeah, I mean,

Becky Rousseau: 19:17

yeah, I agreed I do I do feel the ADD is definitely worth it because we do eventually get to the end product. And it is something that they can be proud of. Usually, you know it is it's usually pretty stellar work that they produce.

Ashley O'Neil: 19:33

So I just think sometimes we are like, our baseline for noncash, like if you've got our spectrum of chaos and not not is always like kids working on the same worksheet with the teacher, right, like direct instruction, where it's like kind of students are very passive. And I think sometimes we call active learning chaos because it feels like it's on the other side of the spectrum, but we associate it with some neg And I know that can come from lots of places. But it's really interesting to think about, like, when each individual child that you're seeing is, is creating something and doing something different than the outcome is pretty spectacular. Sometimes that looks like activity on their part because they're the one right with their motor running right, instead of kind of stuck out the grid that

Becky Rousseau: 20:21

that is exactly that's exactly what it looks like. In my classroom. Yep. If we're doing directed instruction, everybody's doing the same thing. But when they're in different spots, it is it is noisy. It is. It's work. It's still work.

Ashley O'Neil: 20:37

So my question my next question, and I think this is a good segue is about maybe how your thoughts on teaching have changed over time. Because we both Julie and I were former classroom teachers, and I would say the teacher, I was a first year teacher, we don't have a lot in common anymore, her and I, but I'm really proud of who she was. But we're quite different these days. And I'm just curious, both of you have different grades, I think you've probably had like, nuggets of these approaches. But how has your thoughts on teaching changed over time?

Laura Trombley: 21:07

You want me to start with this one back, since you were just talking? I was thinking about this when I was when I was. So I was thinking about this yesterday when I was, you know, writing down my thoughts on these questions. But I'm with you actually, I feel like I have, I'm definitely not the same person at all. But then when I thought about it, down to the things that I think are most important in teaching, I kind of feel like I in a way, I haven't changed that much. Like, the things that were always important to me are still the most important to me making connections with kids, getting kids really excited about education, whatever it is that we're studying, that I feel like is exactly the same. How we get there, I feel like is the really the thing that has changed a lot, my friend, she's retired now, but she would always make fun of me because she had the classroom next to me my first year of teaching. And you know, it was one of those things. My mom was in there with me, we were setting up the classroom, she always makes fun of me because I was sponge painting a bulletin board, she still brings that up to this day. And it's been like 20 years. He's like, Oh, remember when you were first your teacher and you sponge painted the bulletin board. So I wouldn't spend time sponge painting a bulletin board now. But in I feel like the stuff that I find important is the same but the little stuff like that the mechanics of things, I feel like I and I know Becky are the same. We've learned where to put the energy that's more more useful. I'm gonna be honest with you, I mean, classroom teachers, I feel like spend a boatload of time getting their classrooms ready at the beginning of the year, in this position. I don't I mean, I've got stumbled towards whatever. But I am not spending. I'm just being I, like I said, I think more intentional and more efficiently how I spend my time now. And at the beginning of your career, I feel like you feel all this stress and pressure of all of the things that are happening in the building, that aren't necessarily important to getting kids about excited about education, in engaged in being part of an educational community. I feel like as a beginning teacher that weighed on me a lot more. Now being 20 Some years into it. I don't worry as much about those things. And I can I don't know if you feel that way, Becky, because I being a special classes teacher is no we're gonna get to that is vastly different than being in a classroom, a classroom teacher. So maybe, maybe that's my position where I can and I can take a step back from that a little bit. But I think that there's a, you get a little less stress as a as a more veteran teacher with some of those things that generally weigh on you as a teacher. Does that. Does that make sense?

Becky Rousseau: 24:39

I would agree. I would agree with that. But I also think it comes from a place to when you have multiple years of teaching that you learn. You understand that you're you get new clientele. Every year, you get a different group of kids. So sometimes you know those bulletin boards those fancy bulletin boards are appealing and and they use them in their in their everyday. And then you learn that, that that's not the case for certain groups. So I think that yeah, your, the longer you pay for my teaching does look different, because you're right, or I don't pay attention to all those things, because I've got to learn my kids first, and then I go from there. And I think my teaching is also different based on like, all the testing, and the data, like it is definitely more data driven than when I first started. And I, you know, also learned how to use that data appropriately. So you know, what, your, I don't know, not all of it is relevant, but some of it really does. really does help drive but it's more of like the on the spot kind of data that I collect from watching or observing my kids or looking at their work. And like, oh, I probably didn't do as good of a job as I thought, or they didn't get this concept. So I'm gonna have to reteach. So, that is definitely is more intentional. I don't know if you said that. But it's definitely more intentional now than when I first started.

Ashley O'Neil: 26:19

You just mentioned like off the cuff, like, my dad is great, because it helps me be intentional and plan next steps, and you kind of move the external noise, can you talk about how you do that, or like, your approach to that a little bit more, if that makes sense.

Becky Rousseau: 26:37

So, um, so I think like the data that I collect, I like we're always collecting, I'm always collecting data daily, probably hourly, with every subject that I did in a lot of it is observation, you know, I have kids, if they're, you know, watching the clock, well, they're probably bored or they don't understand something. So that's the data that I collect. And then I know what I have to do in that moment. I'm a mass of third grade math is very hands on. But as we go through the like, very pictorial, but as we go through the year, those pictures get removed. So they were on fractions, and the most of the rest of our year is gonna be all on fractions. And it's very abstract concepts. So I like to do the teaching, I do the practice. So we do the homework, and then I look at that. And oftentimes I'm like, oh, you know, I get those misconceptions by looking at their work. And then I can adjust for tomorrow, if we need more review, or if I have to give an example, or let them, you know, ask a question and let them try and figure it out or give them a practice problem. So I feel like data collection happens all of the time. And for me, that is what that's what do I want to say, effective data collection, because I'm doing something with it, like waiting until the end of the year to test me over all of this stuff. I don't know how effective that is. And then you're right, it does get thrown back on us, you know that, especially with that third grade reading law, you know, like, I have kids that potentially if they don't pass, um, step, I guess I'll be seeing them next year, that hasn't happened, because there's a ton of loopholes. But that does kind of weigh on me a little bit. When I'm listening to them read or I get to April, I'm like, Oh, my goodness, I have only a month really. Cuz now we have all of our state testing happening in April, I don't really have much more time to teach. So now they're going to be evaluated on everything we've done this year. And sometimes they get to this point, and like, Oh, we didn't do this, or I didn't do this yet. You know, those kinds of things. So it is it is stressful. But the most useful data is the stuff I'd collect on a daily basis. The authentic data collection,

Ashley O'Neil: 28:59

I hear you saying is like the further removed the data is from the child. And right, the less helpful it is to actual change. And the more it is about like, reporting out, right, so there's like the reporting data that kind of lets us know, metrics we can't really do anything about, but what you're really talking about is like the stuff that's the most useful is the things that are integrated with that child as a whole. So like you're able to look at the score and remember Oh, yeah, that got picked up early that day. So this is the thing or like, Oh, yep, that but I also remember that they had an ice pack on their leg because they fell off the monkey bars at lunch and so this probably wasn't the best day for them to be doing skins and your awareness both this kind of losing the pictures in math over time. And that awareness with you is that true bit of teacher expertise that i i love to kind of highlight and point out and what you're already what your automatic doing is collecting data in your classroom that is actionable. Versus prepping for the big end of the year. Okay, here's the bar, but can we can we over the finish line, which I appreciate. That was that was exactly what I was asking. Thank you. This is teach wonder brought to you by the Center for Excellence in STEM education. Links are in the show notes and transcripts are on our site.