The Process is Where We Should Be

We are bringing our former teacher friend and new colleague Kim June back on our podcast. We asked Kim to think about a change she's made to her practice and how she is bringing that into the fall. We were not prepared for her answer- so much so, that we brought her back for a second interview for this episode. Part I will be an interview with Julie and Part II is with Ashley. You won't want to miss Kim's reflection on her 30+ year teaching career and what she would do if she was back in the classroom right now.

Links:
Kim's First Episode

Music:
Intro and Outro by David Biedenbender

Other Music:
Selections by Schubert 
Daylight Emotional by SunnyFruit 

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Facebook: cmich_cese

Transcript

Julie Cunningham: 0:00

Okay so now we're recording so welcome to teach wonder.

Ashley O'Neil: 0:11

Welcome to Teach Wonder

Julie Cunningham: 0:13

A podcast hosted by

Ashley O'Neil: 0:16

Ashley O'Neil and

Julie Cunningham: 0:17

Julie Cunningham.

Ashley O'Neil: 0:25

So my entire life through college and working through the late night study sessions and early morning babysitting gigs, the first 22 years was done without caffeine. I was a water girl who would occasionally get a tea or a coffee read thinly veiled Ice Cream Frappuccino thing with my friends. But that was totally for social and it was not for the awake intake. Huge student teaching. My first semester was tough. I had long drives every day. And I had bumped my caffeine intake up to maybe a cup of coffee a week. I walked out of my second semester though, and I was drinking diet coke, sweet tea, and coffee every single day multiple times a day, why we affect each other. The team I was with would rotate through who grab drinks for each other every morning. They were kind enough to include me and I was grateful to be included and sure that icy tap of energy to keep up with the pace of working in student teaching. It was really helpful and I was not saying no, we affect each other. After I left student teaching those Diet Cokes faded as I realized that my preferred caffeine intake of choice was coffee with creamer. And it didn't hurt that my new teaching team shared a coffee mate creamer in the fridge every week. But still had I stayed with that student teaching location. And if I was a teacher there today, maybe I would have a mini fridge in my office for Coke cans instead of a collection of coffee mugs on my desk. Now obviously caffeine and pedagogical practices are far apart. But are they? Do you notice that you're affected by the teaching styles of your team, the culture of your school, I have worked in three schools for grade level teams that rotated through a dozen of grade level partners. I've had five administrators, three different special education directors, and each work dynamic tugged at my teaching from relatively small things like at this school, marches. reading month is a big deal. No like, like it's a big deal, to the ways that we handled student data and talked about behaviors and structured our days at each school. While I was learning and honing my own craft, I was also being affected by the school and the building and the people in it. And the trick is not to get rid of that influence. Some of it is fantastic, right? But the trick is to be aware, because I'm pretty sure I'm not alone. When I say I wake up every morning with the best of intentions to be the best parent, the best partner, the best colleague, the best educator, but my intentions don't always make it to the end of the day. And some of that is the busyness of life and the tough days that we have. And some of it is the fact that we affect each other. So in this season, we're discussing the change we're bringing to teaching this conversation matters to me because we have to be honest about the tensions that exist between the change and the growth we're trying to make in our practice. And the fact that making change is a really difficult thing to do. I don't mean to brag, but it is rare that one of your favorite teaching teammates becomes your coworker at a new job. Kim Jun and I met through some long term professional development. And then we taught together in the same building for a year we were even on the SAP team together. And now she's working with me again at the center part time. And I'm thrilled, and the conversation you're going to hear with Juliet, the two of them share a little bit more about her work. But I'll add that Kim is bringing a tenacity and a joy to the center. And we're all affected by her enthusiasm and thought provoking questions. Nothing helps you reconsider the status quo, like having to explain it to someone as thoughtful as Kim.

Julie Cunningham: 3:55

Welcome. We're excited to have Kim June working with us this fall and the podcast. So welcome to CESE, Center for Excellence in STEM education. What projects are you taking on this fall?

Kim June: 4:06

Okay, this fall so far, I have two projects that I'm kind of getting a chance to head off to work through and one will be a homeschool group out of Bay City. And this will be some students at a wide variety of ages that will come to the Bay City Library and I'll meet with them once a month. And then another one is working with some inner city kids out of Saginaw an impossible dream setting where they'll come to campuses a campus kind of experience along with a some activity in our center.

Julie Cunningham: 4:37

Yeah, yeah, we're we're like those are. Those are two brand new projects for the center. So we're lucky that chemists willing to take those on. So what is a goal or idea that you think will drive your interactions with students and either one or both of these settings?

Kim June: 4:53

I think I think the goal for our homeschoolers is

Ashley O'Neil: 4:57

homeschool groups are a great way for families to work together and he A huge part of STEM and learning is the collaboration and the conversation. So we're excited that Kim gets to facilitate a space in which students can do that with each other. And with her

Kim June: 5:10

Often of the social interaction, because they're independent within their house and that group coming together and bringing all these homes together, getting them to interact with each other in the social experience and learning how to work and frustrate together both all in one because that's huge these days, with our second group out a second, I think we need to the experience is what it is these these are students that may never have a chance to experience a college or higher education are understand their options in life that are out there in fields that they wouldn't see every single day. And so this is going to give a lot of exposure to different kinds of activities or different skill levels of what can they do, where are they good at? What are their interests? And so it's really an eye opening experience, I think, for that group.

Julie Cunningham: 5:54

Nice. So what's one way you think that either one of these or both of these will differ from your time in the classroom?

Kim June: 6:01

This is a question I've been thinking at, because after 31 years of teaching, you don't realize that you get set and molded into a public school setting, you really do. And I would not have said that two months ago, until about two this morning, I realized that when you're in public education, you are molded into this outcome driven person. Everything you do in the public education system is about the outcome is about the outcome. When you asked me if my kids can longed to buy the I show you I let them do the long division from the outcome, here's the outcome, they got it. And now that I look back, I think to myself, I really transformed from the beginning of my career to the end. And that for good, good cause. Because it's not the outcome that matters, it's the process. And process is where the soft skills are put into place that will allow any outcome to happen. And you know, when I started thinking about process processes it for every part of your life, you know, I think I was you know, because it happened Good. I'll just come to me two or three in the morning, I was thinking, you know, all my life, I've been overweight and people that have a goal, my goal was to lose weight. Well, I'd get on the scales, and you'd lose weight, and you'd make that game. But you're at gold ribbon. It's not the goal is the process and had the process been done right, you would never have to repeat the goal over and over again, because of process pieces. The Healthy Diet and exercise would have been put in place for kids the process of being eager learners in the process of knowing how to research and the process of how to getting their idea out there how to take criticism without losing it. And using that criticism to build something better. It's not criticism is that negative? It's actually a an enhancement to what you've done. And so process has to be the way I really look at things from here on out. What am I gaining in the process, the outcome will always happen, whether I want it to or not, whether I like it or not, but it's the process good.

Julie Cunningham: 7:58

And even that the idea that and this is hard for any of us, I think in life, but that idea that failure is not a bad thing. Right? But sort of that. I mean, I learned a lot from failing. Right? And so it's okay,

Kim June: 8:13

Yeah, failures, just just the learning of what didn't work, word fail, your needs to go. It's just the outcome. And the outcome was not exactly as I envisioned, it doesn't mean it's wrong, does it mean it's right, it's just not the same. You know, kids, young kids have a great idea about what's just not the same, it's just different. And that has no connotation to them. We, as adults have these racks, negativity, and therefore, now we're stuck in the mode, but don't make the outcome of as I see it, I feel that's gonna change,

Julie Cunningham: 8:46

You are very reflective. I mean, you're deciding that your outcome that you'd become outcome driven. And going back to this idea of process, I don't feel like a lot of people in education can do that. 180 so quickly, and

Kim June: 9:04

it really I look at you know, my peers and my co workers that was in the group with me, it was all comes out. And everything about public education isn't

Julie Cunningham: 9:12

oh right. So it's a necessity

Kim June: 9:14

of your evaluation, your assessments are all outcom, outcome, outcome. Because we can't easily evaluate a process. You can't evaluate someone's soft skills. But yet the soft skills are what will drive and show the outcome

Julie Cunningham: 9:29

and your face lights up when you talk about that. Like, it's like, much more fun. Talking about processes than outcome.

Kim June: 9:39

processes take time, processes to interaction time processes. You know, I can teach a kid in two days to do long divide, multiply divided scrapper and down I could do that and get that outcome that you want. But the process and understanding of the regrouping and the taking apart that would take two to three weeks. And in a time driven society. It's easy to go outcomes.

Julie Cunningham: 10:03

So, this might I've already covered that. But any other questions or nuggets of wisdom you want to impart?

Kim June: 10:09

No, I, I, like I said, I felt once I got that process piece locked in my brain, that's, that's, that's it for everything in your life, every successful you have is the feeling of celebration of the processes, the outcome. You know, sometimes you're often embarrassed by the outcome, because it is so good in someone else's eyes that you feel like you're over activated. And it's really the process that you went through that really touches who you are. So

Julie Cunningham: 10:36

those are some good words of wisdom to end this interview on. Thanks, Kim. You're welcome.

Ashley O'Neil: 10:48

Okay, so I'm sitting back down with Kim Joon because I was not ready to say to sign off at the end of your conversation with Julie, because I felt like it was half of the conversatio, an important half. But it was just part of the conversation. So I'm bringing in here again, because as someone who is still in the middle of her educational career, someone who could go back into the classroom, who has thought about going back into the classroom, and with a bunch of listeners who are likely in the classroom right now, I wanted to talk a little bit about So you talk about this change in priority over for process over product? How do you bring that energy back into the room? Like if you were going back into the classroom tomorrow? What would you do?

Kim June: 11:32

And I'm glad you came back. And you gave me some time to think and between my last interview because I didn't have an answer for this until I just kept thinking and kept thinking. Because if I went back in the classroom, or people that are still in the classroom, you have to have something that you can grasp on to make change for the better. Educators are built to always make things better. It's in our gene pool. That's who we are. It's every threat of our fiber of our being. And so as I thought about this, I started thinking what is truly wrong with the present system in place of this whole outcomes driven developmental model, which came along in the 1990s. And I agree, you have to have a destination. Otherwise, you're going to drive a long way and eventually run out of gas, and never get to where you think you're going. So yes, we have to move kids through an educational system that does have checkpoints. And it does have to have moments where kids can demonstrate the knowledge they have acquired. At the same time, we have to balance that with a change to where we are in this technological age that we're in. And the fact that in my day, and I would say both you and I but we're of different age categories here, by far, not that far. Computers, the TRS80, with a floppy drive disk, and the cassette tape, we're not in your day, but or in mind. And computers were used for nothing more than programming. They weren't an access to information, and the days of memorizing facts, and the days of memorizing information and proving kids that kids know, these facts and this basic background knowledge of stuff are really gone, that access is right there on their phone. And you can see some kids don't have phones, and I'll disagree with you all day and all night because they have access to two more electronic devices and I've ever dreamed of in my life, you know, from Google and Alexa and their phone in their watch. And then you know, it's just everywhere, the access to basic common fact knowledge. And it's sad to see that we're still in a system that test a lot of basic fat content. And we as teachers have always driven our developmental model and driven, direct fat and it's not it's a development model. And that needs to be readdressed. This should be a developmental span of how learning occurs for a kid, how do we learn? That's what it really has come back to how do people learn, because if I can teach you to learn, and I can teach you to think, then outcomes aren't a problem because the thinking the skills to have that happen are in place. And so as teachers, I think, is myself speaking if I look back into the classroom, when you look at those outcomes that are sitting in front of you, I taught fourth grade, so that's my wheelhouse. You know, fourth graders have too long to buy, you know, fourth graders have to understand how the three branches of government were fourth graders have to understand the solid states of matter. And I look at those outcomes. I don't need a student who could say solid liquid gas, sometimes plasma here to space. And, you know, divide, multiply, subtract, bring down divide both plus and treffry down and, and the steps in the exact process. I need to create students who could say division is a breaking up of a number. And when I break up the number I can break it up in to its different place values. And sometimes I have some things that are leftover. But sometimes the leftovers don't matter. Sometimes they do. Sometimes it can be broken up again, like a fraction, and understanding what I'm doing with division. And then I can paint on, divide, multiply, subtract, bring down. But to do that, in my three days of long division that it has to be mastered, as a teacher, I've rushed through the process, I have put myself ahead of the game. And we're going to practice three days of doing the the algorithm over and over and over and over again. And if I went back, I would need to spend the three days understanding the concept of division. Knowing that truly, if the understanding is there, the foundation is truly built on a learning process. A developmental model, that is routine that I'm going to place on top would be easy for the kids to access. And then you see kids do this all the time, they understand how video games work, give them any game, and they can conquer in seconds, you don't even know how to move forward or backwards. And they've already mastered the whole game. Because they understand how these games are developed, that there's hidden chambers, that there's the secret rooms and all this stuff. And I'm given the role, and I don't even know which way is up and down yet. And they have the concept development models in place for them. So now adding any road on top of it becomes a breeze. And so we need to really change the focus in the classrooms to get the development place first, and then tap on the stuff on top and trust. Because when it comes time for those scores, the scores then judge every single one of us educators that are sitting out there, and we know that and I'm sorry, but teachers don't like to fail. Teachers are competitive beings, we have to have scores that are the best at all times. And if not, it's our fault, we fail, we take it harder than any other group of individuals out there. People don't understand how a Friday you can come home exhausted just because one kid didn't do as well as you thought they could have done that you've seen them do and how that crushes our soul and our spirit. So trusting that if you do the development, if you do the process of learning the concepts, then the other piece will fall into place come testing. That's huge trust, because we don't do it that way. So if I went back in the classroom, I would have to, I'd have to rearrange, I'd have to look at my math outcomes from a whole different perspective, what underlying thinking skill is needed for all of them. And you and I know that for math, please value. So let's do place value until the cows come home. You know, and when they're there, let's invite the sheep next. And let's do it again. Let's keep doing base 10, base 10, base 10, until we can do it inside out backwards forward. And then we can easily put base 10. Together now we can subtract and divide, we can multiply, we can do it all because we understand how the system works. And then those other pieces would really fly. And they wouldn't take as long as they're taking right now in our public schools.

Ashley O'Neil: 18:06

Totally, totally. Yeah.

Kim June: 18:06

And reading, I think reading starting to get on board. And the idea of we're not asking for straight comprehension questions anymore. They're now asking for the thinking process, the comparative processes, those higher Bloom's Taxonomy pieces. And now it's people Hi, my reading scores are dropping, well, yeah, for dropping because decoding, and memorizing of content is no longer what we're testing. It's the skill of reading comprehension, embedding yourself in there, applying it yourself to the reading, taking the reading and hanging on every hanger in your body, your being and seeing how it fits on you. And that that's a different kind of teaching. You know it is and it takes time. That's the big thing -time.

Ashley O'Neil: 18:52

But I would also argue that that kind of teaching feels good. Like that kind of teaching feels really good. And I don't think there's a teacher I've ever talked to you who is like, can I love really, I really, really love standardized test season. Like I just really, really love dropping those kids in front of that computer that it does just my favorite feeling. And what we love is those moments when we're deep in the content Miss students when it's back and forth, and they're engaged, and we're feeling passionate. That's the part that we love. So it's almost like the thing that everybody's craving or needing is the thing that teachers are actually designed to do, right? Like that's why we became teachers in the first place. So it's remembering that piece and remembering that it doesn't matter if I can memorize each part of speech, it matters that I can use them and apply them and understand how the system of language works to communicate effectively. So it's stepping back from that content a little and saying what are we really talking about here? to reprioritize where you put your time and energy because you can't do that. All of it. Yeah, so letting go some of that memorization. And focusing instead on the deep stuff, knowing

Kim June: 20:07

the foundation is the most important part, you know, assessing. And I will tell you, you're like, I'm weird. But I actually enjoy moments of standardized testing, I enjoy the fact when a student can take a number or a result, and see that what they've done is really shown growth for them. So when you look at it as a growth piece for kids, and for kids to rank and see how they're doing, and what I'm doing in my hard work is really paying off. I love that moment. Because not often in my small town of, of Alma Michigan, do kids get to get out and see kids on their same level. And then they take a national assessment, say, okay, you know, I'm gonna start as every other fourth grader in the nation, how great is that? I am not about this score is low, you're a bad kid here, slow kid, you're behind kid, no, this this score is lower than everybody else's with this score is higher than I've ever had. I'm going in the right path, my mountain is climbing, let's get on board and keep going. Because next time, look at where I can be. And then the next time and then the next time and you know that looking for what I'm doing is working. And I think if standardized tasks were used, truly as a growth entity, and my score goes down, and Newsflash, something's not working. You know, if you're at the maker station, we're all about the failures are your best learning opportunity. Because now you knew what didn't work. And you've just learned something. And let's go on.

Ashley O'Neil: 21:38

So you think about it, you uncouple it from like shame and stress, and uncouple it from like, intrinsic value of that human being. And you say, instead, we're detectives, and this is just data. This is data that gives us clues into where we're where we are, what we what we can do what we can do better. It is it has its limitations, but it has its purposes, and then it feels a lot safer to talk about it. And it feels more individualized because you're not sitting here saying, No, we're not focusing on like, who's ranked third in our class, we're focused on saying, has your bar moved? How is that going for you?

Kim June: 22:12

And I think we all took that. Statistics for elementary teachers class or did six can be anything you want, you can live anywhere you want. So why not use them for the benefit to encourage kids the benefit to find out what's not working, it used as a tool versus a punishment and evaluative system. It's not it's an innovative tool, because there's plus or minus arrows on everything we do in life plus or minus eras in our day, any given day you and I couldn't perform well, the next day back, it would be the worst thing we've ever seen. So the sooner the system starts really looking at test as just a data piece, which we claim it is, you know, we say this that data great, whether it is say okay, reading cycling some Okay, so what we do

Ashley O'Neil: 22:56

the founder about when do we need to stop there and say, What are we gonna do? No more conversation about how

Kim June: 23:02

sucky it is. Yeah, let's just put it out there. Yeah, yeah. And who's doing better? Well, she's a better teacher than, you know, she just has some ways that I haven't tried yet. What do you got? Tell me, if we all run that growth mindset. You know, those are the districts that are really going to make a movement with kids and learning in and getting back to what matters, the process, not the product. And that's, that's huge. And I think, you know, moving from public education, we're here to save you a stem where the product is really the least of our worries, and it's oftentimes not even our word. It takes away that whole kind of strangling piece that was upon you as a teacher, and I think teachers are the system. It's a key to take it off yourself. And that's what it has to be you have to be okay, with maybe being different than someone else doing something that looks a little different. And someone might not agree with it. Someone will not agree with it. Let's be honest. And that's okay. If you feel it's truly in the best interest of those kids and getting them to where you academically want them to be. Then do it. Were a strong backbone people this time did not put that backbone in the right spot.

Ashley O'Neil: 24:22

Yeah. I like it.

Kim June: 24:24

someone's not gonna like something every time guaranteed. There will never be a day you will please everyone. That's okay.

Ashley O'Neil: 24:30

See what I mean? She's thoughtful. This has been another episode of Teach Wonder, brought to you by the Center for Excellence in STEM education. If something you heard today matter to you, be sure to share this episode with a colleague or a friend. Thanks for listening.