Sarah Szuminski brings a unique blend of experience as a teacher and as a parent to this important conversation about childhood, special education, and what we want for our kids. Sarah has her master's degree in early childhood special education. She has worked in professional settings with children, teachers, parents, and therapists. As a parent, she has done the same. Parents, teachers, and adults will learn from Sarah's expertise and passion.
Sarah's Links:
Simplifying Play
Lisa Murphy On Play
Wrightslaw
Additional Links:
Disability Visibility
Find us on social media:
Instagram: cmichcese
Facebook: cmich_cese
Sarah Szuminski brings a unique blend of experience as a teacher and as a parent to this important conversation about childhood, special education, and what we want for our kids. Sarah has her master's degree in early childhood special education. She has worked in professional settings with children, teachers, parents, and therapists. As a parent, she has done the same. Parents, teachers, and adults will learn from Sarah's expertise and passion.
Sarah's Links:
Simplifying Play
Lisa Murphy On Play
Wrightslaw
Additional Links:
Disability Visibility
Find us on social media:
Instagram: cmichcese
Facebook: cmich_cese
Okay, now we're recording so welcome to teach wonder podcast hosted by Ashley O'Neill and Julie Cunningham.
Ashley O'Neil:No fancy segue in here. I'm just really excited to share this interview where you've talked to teachers, professors, students and educators on this podcast and we're doing that again this week. Our guest is Sarah Szymanski. She has her master's in early childhood education. And she'll share more about her professional background throughout the interview. What I do want to talk about for a minute, though, is how I found Sarah because it wasn't by googling her credentials. We didn't meet at a conference, he never talked together. Although that would have been delightful. We met as many people have met in the last few years when they've been looking for advice and community and support. I found Sarah on the internet. So I'm not sure if you're an adult in 2022. If you've never thought information or community or advice on the internet, and if you're a parent, during last couple of years, particularly, you've probably leaned on your internet resources and your internet community more than you ever anticipated. I did. A few years ago, I was specifically looking for someone who was a bit further along in the early childhood education process than our family was at the time. And I was looking for someone who would give me a little bit of magic, a magic answer a magic, schedule magic, something that would get me out of this place of having a lot of questions and unknowns. And like most parents, I wasn't looking at a special education textbook, even though those are in my garage in a tote somewhere. And I wasn't lead looking at the latest research articles, even though that's what I do for my job often, as a parent, they didn't feel accessible to me at the time. And I was looking for something that felt both relevant and personal. And so I started looking at websites and Instagrams to see what I could find. And I found Sarah, who is a professional, and a parent and a wonderful mix of accessible information and facts about play schemas, and relatable parenting that she packages nicely in her website and on her online presence, whose information and an educational perspective that I was looking for, and it was delivered in a way that spoke to me both as a parent and as a professional. So part of this interview is about child development about play progressions and skill building that happens in all children. Much of steroids website and resources are geared toward early childhood development using nature and play schemas and the power of independent play. But I can tell you, there is no expiration date on the advice and information that there are shares, even if you think your your child or your student has outgrown early childhood. The other part of this interview is a conversation about being a parent of a child with a disability. It is not a conversation about that as an identity, and it is not one that claims to be the experience of all parents. But it is one that shares how Sarah and her husband make educational decisions. Think about child development and navigate the special education world has their advocates without owning her own child's development. There's a beautiful weaving here how Sarah's background as an education shaped and was reshaped by her experiences as a parent. Like Sarah, I want that on the teacher side of the table in special education. And as a parent, I've learned tons and have unlearned tons and I've relearned so many things from my child and from therapists and educators that I work with now, Sarah is one of those professionals to me, someone who has a deep background in child development, who is also a parent. So if you are a parent of a child with a disability, I hope you hear some ideas and mindsets that will resonate with you. We talk IPS inclusion play long term goals for your child as a person, and educators whether you consider yourself in special education or not early childhood education or not. I hope you hear this interview and learn from Sarah's educational knowledge and deep love for her daughter. This interview is one that I really didn't want to edit. I didn't have a way to condense this down into a tidy 30 minutes. And once you start listening, I think you'll see why I didn't want you to miss a word that Sarah has to say.
Sarah Szuminski:We can talk more once you get started at all.
Ashley O'Neil:So perfect. So I'm gonna kind of ask you the first question just to kind of keep our frame because these are the big topics I wanted to talk to you about. So you're in a position where your professional focus kind of aligns with parenting and do you have two young daughters? Can you talk a little bit about how or what aspects of professional or Child Development kind of guide your work and your parenting since there's that nice Venn diagram for you.
Sarah Szuminski:Yes. So I have my master's degree in early childhood special education. And I worked as an early childhood special ed teacher. So I did Birth to Three home visits, and coordinated IFSP. So coordinated occupational therapists and physical therapists and speech therapists to help children meet their goals from basically when they got home from the hospital with a diagnosis or with a health with health complications, to help them make progress developmentally. So that's what I did first out of college. And since then I've done all sorts of things I been a preschool teacher, I've ran most recently, professionally, ran a large childcare center. And I wrote all of the curriculums, and helped do teacher trainings to help move the school to more play based philosophy, versus an academic based, early child, good hood center. And that was all before I had Hazel. So that was all just professionally. And then I had a prenatal diagnosis, found out that my daughter would be born with a heart defect and with Down syndrome, and I was like, timeout, this is what I do for work, this isn't my life as well. And it turns out, it is my life as well. And so having Hazel helped me really hone in on these things that I have been talking about with parents and with teachers, for years. And all of a sudden, I got to see it happen in just one child. And watch. All of these things I talked about, like trusting that a child will do things when they're ready, that actually having to sit back and think, okay, I can push and push and push my kid as much as I want. But until they're ready until they're interested, no amount of therapy, no amount of me, forcing practice over and over is going to get her there in a faster that I've always talked about following the child, we hear it all the time. When we follow a child, you know, we tap into their interests and their intrinsic motivation. And all of a sudden things are more fun. But again, it wasn't until I was following a child meet their milestones way later than what I was used to. That I realized that like, following the child means trusting that kids have inherent capabilities. And when we give them time to show us their capabilities and their abilities, we learned so much from them. So that was something that's like, I feel like even in grad school, we talked about it all the time. And until I got to watch it firsthand, I didn't understand what a difference that could make in my life as a parent and as an educator, and then in my daughter's life, being able to learn that she can trust herself to that she can take those risks, that she can be independent and guide her learning. I really feel like that phrase more than anything that trusting in your children and in any child has really guided me now professionally. And as a parent, even with my typically developing two year old, which is a completely different ballgame. Parenting her versus parenting my older daughter. And the other things I just always come back to is that freedom of movement and the power of play. And again, that's something that informed me what I was doing early intervention and informed me when I was training early childhood teachers. But again, until you see a child spend six months learning how to go from laying down to sitting up, you don't understand how much giving them that freedom makes a difference for them. So I think that I've been on a huge journey as an educator from saying the catchphrases to limping the catchphrases and saying that they're phrases like that for a reason.
Ashley O'Neil:Totally, oh my gosh. Julie, I promise I'll let you speak, I promise. But that sounds so familiar. And that idea that I remember having I was a special education teacher, gen ed teacher, and you do these really contained sessions that were really controlled and and scripted and had all of these. It was like 30 minutes right? And then I was good and they were on their way. And when you're a parent, it's 24/7. And you get to see all of the downtime in the evenings and Saturday mornings, and it's so much more about- they get all the credit for all the things that they're able to do
Sarah Szuminski:They really do,
Ashley O'Neil:they're in their own body all the time. And so they get these tips and support from all of these other adults. But it's got to be in their own time, because it's it's their, their body. It's their job. Yeah.
Sarah Szuminski:I worked for Hazel's first 18 months and then stayed home. She had a whole bunch of health issues, that meant she couldn't continue going to daycare, she was going to the school that I worked at. And so we made the tough call for me to start staying home and supporting her. When I first started staying home, I treated every moment like a mini therapy session. And I was like, I know what we're going to do. And I had all these goals and objectives for like, my interactions with her. And that's been a big journey to for me, is shifting from a therapy mindset. And Mama's therapist to mom being mom. I think especially in this age of social media, you know, when I first started teaching, we didn't have teacher Instagram to go to, we didn't have Pinterest to go to. You kind of were just doing what you learned from your mentor teachers and from maybe some activity books. And now like you said, your pediatrician can say like, Hey, we're worried about this. And you can pull up 50 accounts that give you ideas, and strategies, and you can try to turn every moment into a learning opportunity. But kids don't really learn that way. Like they don't approach an activity in order to learn what we think they should learn the approach to explore, and to play. And so when we as adults, as educators, or as parents can step back and value that over our adult expectations, I think so much more growth can happen. That's been a huge shift. For me, it probably around two and a half was when I was like, neither of us are having any fun. Like, this is just a lot of work. And this should be fun. And a typical developing two year old isn't having to sit and do speech flashcards but their mom. They're not. And so what, what would I be doing, if she was talking, oh, we'd be going to library storytime, oh, we'd be playing at the park, we'd be in the backyard. And I was doing all those things. But I was seeing them all as opportunities for me to get like learning modules in or sessions in. And that just isn't how kids learn. Right? Those things like you said, set them up for success. Right? We can give them the tools, but they don't need to be drilled constantly. It's just a lot of unnecessary pressure on everybody.
Ashley O'Neil:All right, Julie. I promise. It's your turn.
Julie Cunningham:I guess I'm curious when you interact with parents. Now, and probably now as a therapist, I think you're not in that professionally now. Right. But when you interact with parents, has that changed? Has your perspective changed?
Sarah Szuminski:Yes. Especially because when I was going to people's homes, I was not a parent. And I don't think you have to be a parent to be able to do early intervention well, but I definitely was going in with like my bag of tricks and fun things to do, instead of helping equip parents with the tools they need to guide their children. And I think there's been a big shift in early intervention in general to a more like giving parents tools versus you as the therapist, or the interventionist being the tool. But now, you know, when people message me on Instagram and say, we just got this diagnosis, or I'm really struggling, am I we're spending seven hours a week get therapy with my two and a half year old like, what I feel like this isn't fun. I think past me would have said, well, you need to get those early intervention. It's first five years is the most important. The first three years are the most important. You got to get those hours in when you can, you've got to, you know, and kids, kids with cognitive disabilities still develop on the same path. The window doesn't close the door doesn't close at five. And the door doesn't close at three I wouldn't Hazel turn three. I was like, Oh, well, it's over. It's over. She's three now and what else can I do? But that doesn't happen. She kids continue to learn and to play and to grow and so Oh, instead of advising parents now, oh, yeah, whatever your insurance will cover and whatever the state or the district is offering you take all those hours. I instead ask families Okay, what do you value? What are your family's goals? What Where do you see? What skills does your child need to fit in with your family dynamic? Do you guys love hiking? Do you love biking? Do you love going to museums? Do you? Does your whole family love to read? Does your whole family love to paint? And how can you help your child find success and your family find success, real, doing those recreations together, versus how many hours of speech therapy are really going to help your kid learn to put sentences together? What, six months sooner? Two months sooner? So obviously, an early intervention is extremely important. And I'm not saying that early identification and helping parents get the help they need in those early years is vital. But it's just such a tiny part of someone's life. And so again, it's kind of part of this journey that I've been on away from having objectives for interactions and saying, Okay, what do we think? What do we want to see happen in the next two or three years? And what tools do we need to help our child learn to get there?
Ashley O'Neil:Totally, I, that makes so much sense. And I think my husband and I had very similar conversations. And it was finally this light bulb moment of like, where the grown ups, right, like who's gonna tell who's gonna tell if we go to the park instead. And again, I feel so tremendous amount of gratitude to the people who sat on Zoom calls with us and like, and made - were patient with our dog as they were going in and out, you know, like, they're wonderful, wonderful therapists, but also to recognize that the goals are larger than graduating high school, and the goals are larger than going to college, the goals are being happy and joyful and finding joy in whatever you're doing in your life. And that can start now and it can be a part of your family.Totally.
Sarah Szuminski:Yeah, I always get emotional when I talk about that aspect, because I don't think it's talked about often enough for children who have disabilities, children who have diagnoses is that they're not just a two or three year old, they're going to be an adult someday. And so when we sit and have very adult expectation, we have higher behavior expectations for a two or three year old in the speech session than we would for a two or three year old, who's just living their life, higher expectations for them to be able to sit and attend, and do things that are really, really hard for them. And it's laying the framework for a lifetime of sitting across the table from an adult telling you what to do. And that's not the rest of life, like, what are we wanting to prepare children for? And for us, in our family, it's living a full life of self determination. And so that starts young, letting her choose now what activities she wants to do, what sport she wants to play and giving her the tools that she needs to be successful, in her own way at what it is that she wants to do. She wants to ride a two wheeler bike. Okay, how can we help her learn how to ride a two wheeler bike, she wants to play soccer, she's playing soccer this spring on a regular old Parks and Recreation team. And so it's probably going to be one of us out there on the field with her running around with all the five and four and five year olds but and letting her pick the books we read and the way she plays and honoring the ways that she wants to play versus the way that I think she should be playing. And I think that it's going to pave a life of more choice for her and an ability to determine what she wants to do and not be bored and only have to watch TV and do a rec program three hours a day when Joe transition programs and for her when she's 26. So it's like way big picture. But I think if as professionals we really do want to honor play and that's what I always come back to to is this idea that if play is an expression of joy and an expression of choice, and that's how young kids express themselves and we you can make that a priority as teachers and as, as parents, or we can say my ideas are more important.
Ashley O'Neil:No, no. Yeah, yes to all of those things I was just thinking about, you say play in finding joy, it really gets back to that strength based focus that we like, as parents and as educators, and I think we strive for that, but it's hard to, to, you can talk about it. And then sometimes it's hard to spot that in the wild and put it into practice, right. So my son really loves the Mr. In his bedroom has little humidifier. So we had this huge, long conversation about the motor and the sound that was making in the way that was working. I mean, we played up there for an hour and a half. And I said to my husband, I said, you know, we've got a lot of toys downstairs, but this brought joy. And he, he had a blast. And from a speech side, we had all of these conversations, right from our fine motors that he's playing with the little knobs and buttons, but it was totally what he wanted to do in that moment instead. And so, and I get that doing that on a Tuesday night with my one child, in my home is so different than a teacher doing it in the classroom. But I still think that there's space for that shift to happen, where we say, Okay, what's working for you, kid? And then how can I follow you.
Sarah Szuminski:Yes, and letting Him guide the conversation and guide what he's interested in. And at our house, sometimes that looks like playing grocery store for hours and hours. And we're packing were multiple girls are very into like packing bags and going camping, they like pack to go different places. But it basically means put all their toys in whatever containers they can find. And it's the kind of play that makes me a little twitchy, because I like, like, all you're doing is piling all your things together. But honoring that that's how they want to play and then coming at it to from a developmental standpoint, and knowing and something I share a lot on my Instagram is knowing the why behind different play behaviors. And children who are neurodiverse, or children who are developmentally delayed stay in certain play patterns a lot longer. And that can cause families, and teachers a lot of frustration, it can look like problem behaviors, like kids who are throwing things. For years, some kids throw things for years, throw their cups off the table, throw every toy they can get their hands on, they're exploring the world. They're exploring momentum, and physics and gravity and all of these different things cause and effect cause and effect on the object cause and effect on the adults around me. Like they are getting a lot of fulfillment from that kind of exploration. And we can either see it as super annoying. Or we can see it as scratching like this developmental itch that they need to get this out of their system. And it could still be annoying. Like when I have to help my girls put two laundry baskets of stuff that they've piled away like, yes, that is bothersome to me. But I can also see that they're categorizing, and organizing and creating a pretend world and having a ton of social interaction, which Hazel has a huge vocabulary. But having back and forth conversations can be really challenging. And so they can get in WH questions. Where are you going? What did you pack? What are you wearing? Who will you see? And if I can engage in that way with her, versus while we're reading a book, or while I'm asking her what happened at school during the day, which is really tricky for her. But she can buy through play, she can engage in those conversations, because that's what she wants to be talking about, just like you said, with the Mr. or kids who love cars, or kids who love dinosaurs. And it's hard. It's hard as an adult to put yourself back back in that world, but when we can make we can unlock so much more potential and so much more fun for our kids and for us.
Ashley O'Neil:So you've talked about I think you've talked about in a lot of sideways ways, but a little more directly. I think about your role as a parent is not the same as Hazel's life. And I feel like you do a really great job of advocating for her and supporting her without owning her identity as your own. And that's not easy to do. And it's really important to do. So can you talk a little bit about how that works for you how you advocate for her what your mindset is, I'm sure you and your spouse do that together. But if you could talk a little bit about that, that'd be great.
Sarah Szuminski:Well, we just said I did really early on, that our identity wasn't going to be down syndrome. And I think that it's really easy as parents, especially when you're living the nitty gritty. And the tricky life of caring for a kid with either complex medical needs, complex educational needs, are just isn't what you thought was what your life was going to look like, it can become really easy to make that diagnosis your whole world. And it's been a big journey of growth for me, because I found a lot of comfort in owning her diagnosis in the early days, I think it helped me accept what her diagnosis was, and move through the stages of grief. You know, even though I knew and had taught several children with Down syndrome, it still was really scary to get a diagnosis. And I think finding a little bit of identity in that helped me process all of those feelings, and then move past really early on. We put up some pretty firm social media boundaries about what we share about for her medically and what we share about for her beyond her just being a kid. And it's a definitely a journey that I've been on. In learning from disabled adults, reading books by disabled adults, following disabled adults on social media, learning more about disability, civil rights was really huge for me, and that I am a disability adjacent parent, my child has a disability, that's not who I am. And that's not my community, she will eventually have her own community and we seek out friendships, for her with other children with Down syndrome just as much as we seek out inclusion for her. And I had to break down my own internalized ableism, which is a conversation for whole- we could talk about that for hours. But listening to disabled adults, and centering my daughter's experience, over my experience, really helped me make that move. And my mission on social media has always just been to say, Hey, this is our life, it looks a little different than yours. But I bet in a lot of ways, it's really similar. My kid might look a little different than yours. But in a lot of ways, her childhood experience is very similar to your child's experience. And I've really always wanted to focus on this is what we do, you know, this is how we play. These are the places we go. But these are our favorite things to do we love going to the park, we love going to the library. But this is not who I am. If that makes sense.
Ashley O'Neil:Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. And do you find that that mindset of being disability adjacent and that your job is to advocate for her and it's centered around her? Do you find that that helps you when it comes to IEP meetings and, and and deciding therapy is and looking at her short term goals and long term plan?
Sarah Szuminski:It does. I think it's going to inform us even more as she becomes an active participant in her educational planning, because that's the goal in IEPs is to have the individual help guide their planning and their education. And it's going to be several years before she's sitting in IEP meeting with us. But I think that we're teaching her to be a self advocate all the time. By listening when she says no, by by letting her make choices by giving her time to communicate what it is she likes and what she doesn't like. by interpreting challenges at school, or things that like again, can be labeled as behaviors but seeing those instead as communication. Instead of Oh, woe is me, my child's really struggling in this area, my life so hard, but instead to see it as okay, something's happening that isn't working for her. What is she letting us know, through these behaviors or through these issues she's having, and then how can we help her make a change? And so I think that's really informed the IEP process. And then we always come to the table with what our long term vision is for her life, with the caveat that someday she's going to tell us what her long term vision is. And it's probably going to be different than what we're saying. But for now, our long term vision is that she is an active member of her community, that she has choice over her life as an adult, that if she chooses to pursue higher education, or a job, or a relationship, that she has the tools that she's gaining the tools from school, to help her have success down the road. And a lot of times, you come to the IEP table, and they have tons of goals for the next six months and the next year. And they're so hyper focused on they can't, that it's hard to see. What we're really working for, you know, are not just working that she can identify all 26 letters, upper and lowercase 90% of the time, we're working that she can read bus schedule someday, you know that she can navigate a grocery store. So I think that we come to the table and say, Alright, this is our big goal, what can we work on this year that can help us get there. And having that mindset has helped us say no to a lot as well, there's a huge push. I talked about this already, but a huge push to have your child in as much extra as possible with the idea that it's going to help them that three hours of physical therapy a week are better than one. And to our speech therapy is better than one and you should be doing in school therapy and out of school therapy. And don't forget about music therapy. And all of a sudden, you're running your kid from place to place to place and when you can pause and say okay, what is our long term goal? And how will dictating every hour of every day for her help her reach this long term goal of being an independent adult, because it won't, you know, if kids aren't given the chance to play and determine what they do when they're little, it's really hard for you to say suddenly, you're 15. And you need to start making some choices about what to do with your time. I thought of one more thing that I wanted to say about this, the idea of ableism and unpacking my own ableism and how that's informed our IEP journey. So a big part of having my identity not be wrapped up in my child's disability helps me not find my worth in her accomplishments. And it helps me accept her exactly as she is today, instead of thinking how much better life will be when she can tell me what's wrong, or when she's reading or when she's doing XY and Z. And so when I can focus exactly on who she is now and see that she's worthy, even if she never does any of those things. It helps me value her childhood, over pushing her to meet those milestones. And so it helps me say, Okay, well, one more hour of this therapy, or after school tutoring, really be enriching to her life right now, or we're playing on a soccer team, be what needs to be our one extra thing for these next couple of months. Our district is universal summer school. It's like a summer camp and they do flip COVID thing, but it's continuing on this summer. And so we gave her the choice of doing outpatient speech with a speech therapist she loves or did she want to keep going to school for a few weeks this summer. And she picked school, which does not surprise me. She loves loves, loves school, sports, she's gonna get to go to school with some of her friends and it's at a different school. But it's the same Montessori program that we're already in and I'm able to see that that is more important that her choices she's making now are more important than me pushing her to become what she could be in six months. And that has been another journey. Like I don't think that you just it's hard. It's hard to change your mindset to be like that. And it's been because of lift listening to the lived experiences of disabled adults and what they say the relationships were like with their families, getting to know adults with Down syndrome, you know, and there are self advocates with Down syndrome, there are public speakers with Down Syndrome and listening to them. And valuing their experience over their parents experience, which again, is kind of taboo on social media. It's all parents talking for their kids that have Down syndrome. And so saying, all right, what this person is saying is not as important as what the self advocate that I follow, is saying. And again, it?
Ashley O'Neil:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And you're, you're great. I hear a lot of like, and I I've been trying to do this more to is this idea of like neutral language, like things are neutral. So rather than saying, Oh, my goodness, I wish it was this way, or I Can't Believe It's Not this way, or here's a milestone, and we're back here, you're really neutral to say, Well, I see that this is happening. How can we problem solve to move forward? What are this, I see that there's some skills we need to practice here, so let's practice them. And it's so much less stressful for everyone. But it is a little bit of have you carving out this space is a Nope, we're gonna keep it neutral. And I'm gonna keep some of this stress away from Hazel, away from our house, and to keep the neutral language and so does that translate? Well, when you get out into out of your bubble of your own, your own four walls of your home does.
Sarah Szuminski:We have an awesome community, we have awesome friends who have children with disabilities. And we have awesome friends who have children like minded friends who have children with disabilities. And we have more friends whose kids are typically developing, I mean, that's just life because not that many people have Down syndrome but and I've connected I mean, my thing when Hazel was little is that, okay, if I really want inclusion for her, in her life inclusion starts by taking her to the grocery store, and showing up at library storytime, and showing up at Mommy and me, music class, and just be like, here we are. You'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. We're all learning together. And I've met friends by going to library storytime. I've met people through Instagram, local families through Instagram, and have really built an awesome community. Last year, so Hazel was three and 2020 and had just transitioned. She was almost four. Okay, so she was in private preschool when she was three. And was had just we had just had another IEP. And we were adding one afternoon of an intensive speech preschool program that was with her speech therapist from the district. And we had added one Oh, outpatient speech, we just added it back in when the world shut down. And then our district stayed virtual for all of 2020 and half of 2021. We didn't go back and we went back and super slowly in like the afternoons. And I had a whole bunch of friends who had three and four year olds who were thinking about enrolling them in preschool. And we're like, well, we don't know what this year is gonna look like I do I send my kid to their first school experience with everyone being masked and potentially exposing them to a bunch of stuff that they don't need to be exposed to germs and things like that, or do I keep them home another year. And so I had for a long time. We've always spent a ton of time outside, I have found some other local friends who had kids the same age, who also were comfortable being outside in weather that wasn't the norm select friends who were already outside jumping in puddles with their kids, and it was raining friends who are already sledding with their two and three year olds and said, Hey, I've got this idea. I would love to do an all weather playgroup. Let's meet up two times a week, no matter what will be outside. And I'll do a little story and a little art activity. And we'll just let our kids run wild in the woods for two hours twice a week. And I asked two friends and then one friend asked another friend, I was like spread the word. And I ended up having five families total including mine. And so we did a little bit of virtual learning that year. But mostly all of our learning was just playing outside with a bunch of other little kids. There were eight kids total. And we'd go to the same trail or nature zone for a month and just explore. So we would start by just free to play. And then I'd read a story. And we do a different poem every month, the same poem all month long. And then we just play. And we had a few, like, each week we'd pick a theme, but it just be very, something that's easy to observe. So, slugs, so this week, we're just going to look for slugs. Next week, we're gonna look at the changing leaves. The next week, we're gonna look at the bark, and just really tiny focus. And if the kids paid attention, awesome, and if they didn't, whatever, and it was all these kids who had really not ever had a chance to play with other children, so there's tons of social emotional learning going on, there was tons of learning going on. For all the parents as we let our kids take risks and navigate disagreements and it explore climb trees, and Hazel spent like six months trying to dangle jump and hanging from a branch, which is what's going on some of the other kids could do in this like Fort that somebody had built in the woods. And so she spent all this time jumping and falling and jumping and falling. And finally, the last day she mastered it, she grabbed it hung on swung and grabbed her feet up, all the kids clapped and everyone freaked out because it was something that she was motivated to do because she saw all of her friends doing it. And she was able to decide, you know, I want to do that and I'm gonna figure it out. So much. Like I said, social emotional development but fine motor development as kids are climbing and hanging and taking risks and jumping from tree to tree. And so much cool vocabulary learning. I mean hearing much a little three and four year olds yell metamorphosis as they pretend to be like, Caterpillar is turning into butterfly spent a whole month. We're about to do a whole month of butterflies again next month, but we watched butterflies grow at like the caterpillars turn into butterflies. And we did all these fun art projects. And it just, it was really cool experience. And now some of those kids are in Hazel's class at school. So she's in a mixed age Montessori children's house. So she's in a public school. It's a Montessori program. And she's with other three to six year olds, and two of the sisters that were at the playgroup are now in her class at school.
Julie Cunningham:Yeah, I know that people can check your your Instagram and your blog and follow you. But if you had to give some advice to a parent or a teacher just wanting to get started with play, where would you tell them in or intentional play? Where would you tell them to get started or what to try? Because I imagine if it's not successful initially, then it's easy to say, Well, that didn't work. And yes, I didn't go the way I thought it would or whatever.
Sarah Szuminski:So there is an author, and the Early Childhood expert named Lisa Murphy. And she has a book called Lisa's Murphy's book of play, I will look up the full title, but I'm pretty sure that's what it is. And it is about her journey as an early childhood educator from being a worksheet teacher, to embracing and living this life of play. And her book really documents how she made the shift. But also all of these really important things that are still accomplished through play, and how play is the ultimate like kindergarten readiness. Play is awesome for social emotional learning, and for self regulation, and for all of these really big life skills that are going to help our kids succeed more than being able to recite the ABCs or count to 20 before they get to kindergarten or write their name. And her book is really accessible. You don't have to know the lingo. You don't have to have a background in early childhood education, to understand and learn what she is sharing her book is amazing. It's awesome. So that's a good spot to start. And then if families a lot of communities have play and learn groups, or like there are a lot like libraries storytimes but our local community college has one and it's put on in conjunction with like great start and Bright Beginnings. And it's a place to go and learn from educators. But mostly learn how to play with your kids. Usually there's art activities, and there's play to do. And then they send you home with ideas of how to continue that play at home. There's a million great websites and Instagram accounts and ideas shared. But I always remind people that whenever we are seeking inspiration, we should be thinking about what our kids like our kids want to do. And what is the outcome? Because so often, a lot of the things that look so pretty in a picture are like a one and done activity, or they have like a very specific adult focused learning outcome. And they look cute, and they make us feel like, well, there we go, we've worked on a math art activity, but they're not actually that great for helping kids learn how to play, or for helping our kids learn in general. They're learning exactly what we want them to learn in that moment, and not all the things they need to learn.
Julie Cunningham:And then I imagine that we've talked a lot about early childhood play and learning on this podcast, but is there? I mean, is it just driven by the child? I imagine it's different for every child? But do you start to think about it as while they're entering first grade in school will be more traditionally school in first grade and less? I don't know less preschool and kindergarten like, or is there a timeline in which it must just look different? But does it ever taper off? Or
Sarah Szuminski:so I think kids always need to play. But now more than ever, childhood is being taken away. I mean, for a variety of reasons. But early childhood definitely doesn't end till age eight. And right. So that's second grade, sometimes third grade. And I think there are ways to still fill your day with play, even if your kids are in traditional eight to three school, whether it's advocating for more recess, whether it's checking to see what the rules are at recess, like are they actually allowed to run in play? Or are they supposed to play adult centered games with some recesses have moved to being like, today, we're all going to be playing this activity or that activity? Are our kids still allowed to play and then saying no to homework? I mean, we haven't crossed this bridge yet, right? Because my daughter is only in kindergarten. And she's only in a half day kindergarten program, which is really rare in and of itself. So next year is first grade, and we'll see but I think that an our family Republicans say okay, what homework is necessary? And what homework is just being handed out? And is there a way to opt out, and coming home and putting the emphasis on free play before we sit down like, none of this, you have to finish your homework before you can go outside and play. But instead, let's play first, let's run around outside, let's stay at school, play on the playground with your friends, and then come home and do all the other stuff. And then, you know, I think it can be hard to for working families who don't have the time that I currently have in my life. But I do think it's still possible to say, Saturday mornings, instead of signing up for a bunch of different lessons, we're going to say these three hours are our family's time to play. And maybe with older kids, that means playing board games, or writing music together, or doing a giant messy family or project going for a hike. I mean, all of these things are playful without being like, today we're going to deal with blocks mean doing Legos doing Legos as a family as play. And still saying that this is something that's a priority in our family, even though we don't have four hours a day to play outside every day. That's not realistic for really any family. Very few families. Is that realistic for but I think we can still value play all the way up into adulthood. I mean, our play looks different, but we still play, doing puzzles, making podcasts. Going on Instagram, like creating content for Instagram for me is playful. I love going for walks and reading for fun. I mean, all of those things that looks different cooking, baking, all of those things are can be very playful.
Julie Cunningham:But those examples are really helpful. Thank you.
Ashley O'Neil:Is there anything else we didn't talk about? You wanted to make sure we hit today, Sarah, I want to be mindful of your time. But
Sarah Szuminski:Something that you had asked in the questions is what do you wish that?
Ashley O'Neil:Oh, yes,
Sarah Szuminski:parents, parents or caregivers who had just qualify it. And
Ashley O'Neil:So now you're just going to interview yourself and answer the questions. (both laugh)
Sarah Szuminski:I just took some notes on that one, because I think getting a diagnosis or going through the IEP process is really challenging. And you have to learn a whole new lingo, a whole new set of rules and laws. And when your child has an IEP, you're expected to know infinitely more about the educational system than if your child doesn't. And it can feel really overwhelming and I went to school to write IEP is like I've taken classes on IEP s. And I have written many IEPs and run IEP meetings. And it feels completely different to sit on the other side of the table as a parent, and hear what your child's scores are and what your child is and isn't doing can be really hard. And so connecting with a local advocacy group, or taking some time to read a book rights lot, W ri ght s rights law puts out a ton of parent education materials, all surrounding Ida and IEPs. And, and you have to educate yourself on the lingo, because you're an equitable member of the group. As a parent, you have equal input on every single part of the IEP. And you're the only person who's only thinking about your kid. The other members of the team who love and value your child have several other kids that they're probably reading IPs for that week. And so as a parent, when you know that you are an important member of the team, then you can help drive the way the meetings go and start the meeting off positive, and know that your input has worth and should be really valued when it comes to this writing of a giant document. I mean, my kindergarteners IEP is like 22 pages long, it's really long. And we spent a long time going over every single goal this time around, because it's what's going to drive what she learns in first grade. And it shouldn't be that much work, but it is. And so just a little bit of education or even just having one finding one other person whose kid has the same diagnosis as you maybe in a Facebook support group, or maybe through a local group. That is like a little further down the road in the journey, then you can be super helpful as well, too can say art when my kid was in first grade, this is what we were working on. Every kid is different, but then at least you know what is possible, and what you can ask for. So now my daughter is fully included alongside her peers and isn't talking like a kindergartener isn't reading isn't doing math, but it's still making amazing gains, and having an awesome impact on her peers and on her teachers just as much if not more as they're having on her. And so knowing that, that I have the power to say, Okay, it's worth while we're gonna make this work has been really meaningful to me. And I wish someone had told me all this time ago, like I've had to figure it out kind of on my own and through other parents. So
Ashley O'Neil:yeah, I have to cut through a lot of a lot of paperwork and lingo and language and like, we're gonna do this, we're gonna make it go really quickly. And it's hard to say wait, no, per step. I want to think about this. And I would like to see things in advance and it is a lot but it changes your experience when you can remember that you you may not have the same educational background. I mean, I know you're a teacher, but if you have an IEP, you may not. You may you may be a banker or something else. But you know your kid better than anybody else does.
Sarah Szuminski:Yeah. So many acronyms, so much lingo and even just knowing that you can say stop. I actually don't know what it is that you just said or can we go back and talk about this? I'm not seeing that at home. Can we hash this out a tiny bit more and figure out what we need to have in place to make sure that this that you're seeing at school and goes away can be really helpful to your kids education and helpful to you as a parent knowing that you have the power to say,
Ashley O'Neil:Oh yeah, absolutely. This has been another episode of teach wonder. You can find our information about Sarah and her website simplifying play.com Or on her Instagram page simplifying play. We've included a few resources that you'll want to check out in our show notes. And as always, transcripts are available on our website. This episode and all episodes of teach wonder have been brought to you by the Center for Excellence in STEM education.